We need to talk about Eddie...

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I also agree with everything you’ve said there too.

I’m not blind to Eddie’s faults, but I think he at least deserves the rest of the year (assuming we have some form of AIs) to see if he can engineer an upturn in form.

[Banquo]

Oh come on! Fitness is far more complicated than how big you are! It's far more complicated than how much fat you're carrying too.
Having said that, I think maybe the fitness and discipline were linked innthe 6N. The aerobic fitness needed to play the quick recycle game as we were attempting is ridiculously high. And with partial lockdown/less time with the players etc, maybe we just didn't get up to the levels required. There's then, of course, the knock on effects on decision making, which was the main problem with the pens.

I don’t agree on the pens tbh. The most glaring penalty strings were early in the games v both Wales and Scotland (albeit with shockers from the subs late on v Wales). I simply can’t explain our stupidity tbh- I agree it was poor ‘decision making’ but can’t put a lot down to being knackered.

On the fitness front, we weren’t prepared for the game we aspired to play I’d suggest-partly rust from a good chunk of the team possibly, but you probably need a long term schedule inked in too....which as Digby alludes to is a challenge.

Perhaps England were not fit enough to play the game they wanted to play. There are two obvious solutions to this. Get them fit enough or adopt another, less taxing, game plan that they can handle. Either way, this is a coaching call and if there was not enough time to get them fit, (Sarries contingent etc) Jones bears the decision to go the route he did and play the style they played, when they were not up to it.
In the bigger picture, any international team should be as fit as they can possibly be any time they take the field, irrespective of game plan, and should not run out of puff. That would not be an acceptable reason for losing. If some players are not fit, just drop them and replace with fitter ones until they shape up. I would not really see this as a challenge just a basic component of coaching.

That's what I said.

[Banquo]

Conceding loads of penalties is what - a technical issue, an organisational issue, an on-field leadership issue, a fitness issue, an individual issue (i.e. a selection issue)?

OK, I am fanatically anti-Jones (allegedly) but how the hell can it be anyone else's fault than his?

He selects the team and his coaching crew. The training routine is his. He appoints the captain and dictates the strategy and tactics. He sends the messages with the water boys, does the HT team talk and determines the replacement schedule. Etc. Etc.

What part of his responsibility are we (you) trying to unload? The buck stops with him!

How is it an 'insult' to the clubs was the question?

I agree on the accountability. And you are a tad fanatical on this.

[Banquo]

Perhaps England were not fit enough to play the game they wanted to play. There are two obvious solutions to this. Get them fit enough or adopt another, less taxing, game plan that they can handle. Either way, this is a coaching call and if there was not enough time to get them fit, (Sarries contingent etc) Jones bears the decision to go the route he did and play the style they played, when they were not up to it.

So, only ever play a gameplan your players can cope with immediately. Never try to push the boundaries or improve anything. Don't have a long term plan.
Sounds like pretty shoddy coaching to me. Not to mention exactly what we have been complaining about for years when England win ugly, kick the leather off it etc.
I'm not an Eddie fanboy by any means, I'm just with Digby and Puja in A) thinking that the 6N is, especially with Covid, the best place to experiment under pressured circumstances. B) not thinking the 6N is a tournament that I want to win anywhere near as much as the World Cup. C) Give Eddie a lot of credit for getting us to a World Cup final + having the best record of any England coach ever. D) Feel like the attacking structure that's being put in place (alongside a sensible territorial tactical kicking game) has pretty exciting potential. E) Have a fair bit of faith in Eddie understanding how to get the players to their peak for when it's really important - the World Cup.
I was very pissed off after the Ireland game as we seemed to just revert to playing really stupid rugby, including the pens. And you're all probably right about them not being fitness related, I'm just clutching at straws to explain the inexplicable. Also, defence was alright, but nowhere near as good as it has been, even since the World Cup. But I'm more than willing to go along with the plan at the moment. Especially with nothing better waiting in the wings.

agree on defence, see above. It was poor v Ireland I thought, certainly compared to the last time we beat them, where we killed them on the tackle line.

[Oakboy]

Conceding loads of penalties is what - a technical issue, an organisational issue, an on-field leadership issue, a fitness issue, an individual issue (i.e. a selection issue)?

OK, I am fanatically anti-Jones (allegedly) but how the hell can it be anyone else's fault than his?

He selects the team and his coaching crew. The training routine is his. He appoints the captain and dictates the strategy and tactics. He sends the messages with the water boys, does the HT team talk and determines the replacement schedule. Etc. Etc.

What part of his responsibility are we (you) trying to unload? The buck stops with him!

How is it an 'insult' to the clubs was the question?

I agree on the accountability. And you are a tad fanatical on this.

The insult bit was a suggestion that a two week England camp might do more for a player's fitness than a club's all-season regime.

[Digby]

Conceding loads of penalties is what - a technical issue, an organisational issue, an on-field leadership issue, a fitness issue, an individual issue (i.e. a selection issue)?

OK, I am fanatically anti-Jones (allegedly) but how the hell can it be anyone else's fault than his?

He selects the team and his coaching crew. The training routine is his. He appoints the captain and dictates the strategy and tactics. He sends the messages with the water boys, does the HT team talk and determines the replacement schedule. Etc. Etc.

What part of his responsibility are we (you) trying to unload? The buck stops with him!

How is it an 'insult' to the clubs was the question?

I agree on the accountability. And you are a tad fanatical on this.

The insult bit was a suggestion that a two week England camp might do more for a player's fitness than a club's all-season regime.

The club's try to lift and maintain to a season the players can manage over a season. The England camp tries to lift more rarefied players to more rarefied standards.

So as regards a base professional standard of fitness one could take it as an insult, or just accept that's the reality. As regards pushing on towards test standards of fitness then 1 weeks in an England camp might be worth more than a season at club level

[Which Tyler]

So, only ever play a gameplan your players can cope with immediately. Never try to push the boundaries or improve anything. Don't have a long term plan.
Sounds like pretty shoddy coaching to me. Not to mention exactly what we have been complaining about for years when England win ugly, kick the leather off it etc.
I'm not an Eddie fanboy by any means, I'm just with Digby and Puja in A) thinking that the 6N is, especially with Covid, the best place to experiment under pressured circumstances. B) not thinking the 6N is a tournament that I want to win anywhere near as much as the World Cup. C) Give Eddie a lot of credit for getting us to a World Cup final + having the best record of any England coach ever. D) Feel like the attacking structure that's being put in place (alongside a sensible territorial tactical kicking game) has pretty exciting potential. E) Have a fair bit of faith in Eddie understanding how to get the players to their peak for when it's really important - the World Cup.
I was very pissed off after the Ireland game as we seemed to just revert to playing really stupid rugby, including the pens. And you're all probably right about them not being fitness related, I'm just clutching at straws to explain the inexplicable. Also, defence was alright, but nowhere near as good as it has been, even since the World Cup. But I'm more than willing to go along with the plan at the moment. Especially with nothing better waiting in the wings.

[Banquo]

Conceding loads of penalties is what - a technical issue, an organisational issue, an on-field leadership issue, a fitness issue, an individual issue (i.e. a selection issue)?

OK, I am fanatically anti-Jones (allegedly) but how the hell can it be anyone else's fault than his?

He selects the team and his coaching crew. The training routine is his. He appoints the captain and dictates the strategy and tactics. He sends the messages with the water boys, does the HT team talk and determines the replacement schedule. Etc. Etc.

What part of his responsibility are we (you) trying to unload? The buck stops with him!

How is it an 'insult' to the clubs was the question?

I agree on the accountability. And you are a tad fanatical on this.

The insult bit was a suggestion that a two week England camp might do more for a player's fitness than a club's all-season regime.

He has them for more than 2 weeks, and the fitness requirements for international rugby are higher than those for club rugby, and even higher in the revealed new mode; he's probably frustrated that he can't get them fitter when he's not working with them. If you look at Gatland with Wales, his major (initial) contribution was getting them much much fitter.
Of course he's accountable for the results, but there is some mitigation in that he doesn't have complete control over the raw material he's selecting from. Unlike you, I'm not convinced he has an immensely talented or uber skilled pool of players to draw upon....there are certainly discernible gaps positionally, and even the players we deem to be 'the right stuff' have their own flaws that he has to work with. But that's his job.

[Spiffy]

Perhaps England were not fit enough to play the game they wanted to play. There are two obvious solutions to this. Get them fit enough or adopt another, less taxing, game plan that they can handle. Either way, this is a coaching call and if there was not enough time to get them fit, (Sarries contingent etc) Jones bears the decision to go the route he did and play the style they played, when they were not up to it.

So, only ever play a gameplan your players can cope with immediately. Never try to push the boundaries or improve anything. Don't have a long term plan.
Sounds like pretty shoddy coaching to me. Not to mention exactly what we have been complaining about for years when England win ugly, kick the leather off it etc.
I'm not an Eddie fanboy by any means, I'm just with Digby and Puja in A) thinking that the 6N is, especially with Covid, the best place to experiment under pressured circumstances. B) not thinking the 6N is a tournament that I want to win anywhere near as much as the World Cup. C) Give Eddie a lot of credit for getting us to a World Cup final + having the best record of any England coach ever. D) Feel like the attacking structure that's being put in place (alongside a sensible territorial tactical kicking game) has pretty exciting potential. E) Have a fair bit of faith in Eddie understanding how to get the players to their peak for when it's really important - the World Cup.
I was very pissed off after the Ireland game as we seemed to just revert to playing really stupid rugby, including the pens. And you're all probably right about them not being fitness related, I'm just clutching at straws to explain the inexplicable. Also, defence was alright, but nowhere near as good as it has been, even since the World Cup. But I'm more than willing to go along with the plan at the moment. Especially with nothing better waiting in the wings.

No that is not what I'm saying at all. The discussion for me was about fitness and how it can't be used as an excuse for losing. But read it how you will.

[Mikey Brown]

It does seem slightly weak as an excuse - when we knew had several players either horribly short of match fitness or knackered from back-to-back seasons that this was the moment to unleash our revolutionary* high-speed, high-fitness tactics.

But I’m still not sure there’s anything much to be read in to this report.

[Digby]

if you're going to play (more) ball in hand the players have to start somewhere, even if caught short the decision making it forces in so many ways is just something they have to go through, and frankly there's always a reason to delay taking such a risk

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

I'm honestly starting to think this all boils down to how much you care about the 6N vs the World Cup. Eddie has been pretty open that all he cares about is winning the World Cup, and if we do, all we be forgiven. Personally I'm happy to let him try, having got us to the final last time, not to mention put in the best single game performance since 2002.
If we don't win a 6N in the meantime, I'm not too fussed...

[fivepointer]

Ryles and Amor depart........https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57113646

[Oakboy]

What's the longest any of the coaches have lasted? There seems to have been quite a turnover.

[Raggs]

Seeing a rumour that Eddie wanted Amor gone after the second game in the 6N. It was after that we started to really play fast right?

[Mikey Brown]

I'm curious what he'd been overseeing in training that then didn't cut it when it came to match day, assuming he didn't just want a sacrificial lamb.

[Oakboy]

Seeing a rumour that Eddie wanted Amor gone after the second game in the 6N. It was after that we started to really play fast right?

Sorry, do you mean that Jones wanted us to play fast but Amor didn't or vice-versa?

[Raggs]

Seeing a rumour that Eddie wanted Amor gone after the second game in the 6N. It was after that we started to really play fast right?

Sorry, do you mean that Jones wanted us to play fast but Amor didn't or vice-versa?

I mean Eddie wanted him gone after 2 games, and I'd guess at that point, started calling the shots in attack completely, it's also when we really started to play fast in my memory.

[Oakboy]

Seeing a rumour that Eddie wanted Amor gone after the second game in the 6N. It was after that we started to really play fast right?

Sorry, do you mean that Jones wanted us to play fast but Amor didn't or vice-versa?

I mean Eddie wanted him gone after 2 games, and I'd guess at that point, started calling the shots in attack completely, it's also when we really started to play fast in my memory.

Ah, right, thanks. Sorry to be thick!

[Tigersman]

What's the longest any of the coaches have lasted? There seems to have been quite a turnover.

Borthwick - 5 years went to Leicester Tigers Head Coach role
Hatley - 4 years went to Bath Head Coach role
Mitchell - 3 years still in coaching team
Gustard - 2 years went to Quins head coach role
Teague - 1 year went to Bordeaux-Begles skills coach (Ended up head coach after a year)

Eddie has had multiple skills coaches but don't feel personally like I would consider it a main role. (Like kicking coaches etc)

[Oakboy]

What's the longest any of the coaches have lasted? There seems to have been quite a turnover.

Borthwick - 5 years went to Leicester Tigers Head Coach role
Hatley - 4 years went to Bath Head Coach role
Mitchell - 3 years still in coaching team
Gustard - 2 years went to Quins head coach role
Teague - 1 year went to Bordeaux-Begles skills coach (Ended up head coach after a year)

Eddie has had multiple skills coaches but don't feel personally like I would consider it a main role. (Like kicking coaches etc)

Thanks, that's a fair list. Apart from, maybe, Mitchell, would you describe any of them as top-flight? Is that Jones's big issue?

[Banquo]

What's the longest any of the coaches have lasted? There seems to have been quite a turnover.

Borthwick - 5 years went to Leicester Tigers Head Coach role
Hatley - 4 years went to Bath Head Coach role
Mitchell - 3 years still in coaching team
Gustard - 2 years went to Quins head coach role
Teague - 1 year went to Bordeaux-Begles skills coach (Ended up head coach after a year)

Eddie has had multiple skills coaches but don't feel personally like I would consider it a main role. (Like kicking coaches etc)

Thanks, that's a fair list. Apart from, maybe, Mitchell, would you describe any of them as top-flight? Is that Jones's big issue?

Jones committed to developing English coaches. That might be his big issue.

[Tigersman]

Proudfoot was a Rugby world cup winning scrum coach.


IDK do you really get top flight International coaches ?

[Digby]

Seeing a rumour that Eddie wanted Amor gone after the second game in the 6N. It was after that we started to really play fast right?

Sorry, do you mean that Jones wanted us to play fast but Amor didn't or vice-versa?

I mean Eddie wanted him gone after 2 games, and I'd guess at that point, started calling the shots in attack completely, it's also when we really started to play fast in my memory.

I'd say they had an intent to play in all the games, the variable was more could we keep hold of the ball in the right areas of the pitch.

[Puja]

What's the longest any of the coaches have lasted? There seems to have been quite a turnover.

Borthwick - 5 years went to Leicester Tigers Head Coach role
Hatley - 4 years went to Bath Head Coach role
Mitchell - 3 years still in coaching team
Gustard - 2 years went to Quins head coach role
Teague - 1 year went to Bordeaux-Begles skills coach (Ended up head coach after a year)

Eddie has had multiple skills coaches but don't feel personally like I would consider it a main role. (Like kicking coaches etc)

Thanks, that's a fair list. Apart from, maybe, Mitchell, would you describe any of them as top-flight? Is that Jones's big issue?

I think there's an element of truth to that. Hard to tell whether our big improvement in late 2018 was due to Mitchell coming in to challenge him or Gustard's influence leaving (Quins's recent upward bounce has put some more credibility on the latter).

Puja