Grenfell Fire

[kk67]

There you go, Sandy. God bless you Ma'am.

[Stones of granite]

The local MP, Emma Dent Coad (Lab), has been quoted as saying:
"I can’t help thinking that poor quality materials and construction standards may have played a part in this hideous and unforgivable event..."
and

"The council want to develop this area full of social housing, and in order to enable that they have prettified a building that they felt was ugly ... The idea that that has led to this horrendous tragedy is just unthinkable."

The plans for the regeneration project were published in 2012.

In 2013, the Grenfell Action Group published a 2012 fire risk assessment done by a TMO Health and Safety Officer that revealed significant safety violations. Firefighting equipment at the tower had not been checked for up to four years; on-site fire extinguishers had expired, and some had the word "condemned" written on them because they were so old. GAG documented its attempts to contact KCTMO management; they also alerted the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea (RBKC) Cabinet Member for Housing and Property but said they never received a reply from him or his deputy.

Emma Dent Coad was a council-appointed board member of the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation during the period 2008 to 2012, therefore must not only have known about the issues with fire risk assessment, but was involved with the commissioning of the regeneration project.

Most of the above information is from wiki, therefore the usual caveats apply.

[Digby]

The local MP, Emma Dent Coad (Lab), has been quoted as saying:
"I can’t help thinking that poor quality materials and construction standards may have played a part in this hideous and unforgivable event..."
and

There are now reports that to go from the seemingly low quality cladding tiles which are illegal in Germany and illegal on buildings over 40ft in the USA up to actual fire resistant tiles would have cost around £5,000 extra for the entire building. If true that's just so pathetic it's hard to know what to do with those who went cheap

[Zhivago]

Article by someone who worked for the KCTMO

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... wer-blocks

[Donny osmond]

This guy on twitter ....

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[bruce]

Yup. Could have looked really nice if it had been done well. The original building was ok.
The lower entrance floors reminded me of a swimming pool I used as a kid. We seem to have a pathological desire to improve things in a totally pointless fashion.

The paint would've lasted a matter of a few years before looking like shit.
Externally cladding is the best way to insulate a building. In fact, to maintain the integrity of the building fabric of these concrete tower blocks it's the only way to retrospectively insulate them.

I was being slightly facetious, I do understand the requirement to clad older buildings. I suspect we are going to find lots of good intention decisions taken for the best of reasons which co tribute towards this disaster. And possible some bad ones as well, but let's look at the investigations first. The PM wants a public enquiry, but I heard today that the police are launching a criminal investigation, so we should get some facts pretty quickly.

Someone also needs to calm this situation down. Sadiq Kahn of all people getting heckled and, allegedly, bottles thrown at him isn't a great sight and Corbyn et al meeting the survivors is fair enough, but political leaders need to be keeping people calm right now, or allowing bad blood to fester and lead to something worse.

The media and some politicians and political commentators are whipping this up to a point where I can see people rioting.

[Mellsblue]

This guy on twitter ....

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Smiffy knows his shit. Apart from the sprinkler point. Smoke does tend to be the killer but there's less smoke if you kill the fire. Not that a sprinkler system would've been of much use in this situation.

[kk67]

The media and some politicians and political commentators are whipping this up to a point where I can see people rioting.

I'm usually the last one to defend the media or the politicians but the righteous anger didn't need any help.

[Sandydragon]

The media and some politicians and political commentators are whipping this up to a point where I can see people rioting.

I'm usually the last one to defend the media or the politicians but the righteous anger didn't need any help.

Which is why the politicians should be trying to calm things down and let the investigators investigate.

Good posts Mells btw. Some common sense from Smiffy.

[Zhivago]

If your politics causes people to die don't be surprised if you get an atavistic response... And we've seen that. To be honest the Tories deserve everything coming to them. They've ruined this country.

[Zhivago]

Barwell refused to answer Sky News questions over why he delayed a review into tower block fire safety.

Not acceptable.

[Sandydragon]

If your politics causes people to die don't be surprised if you get an atavistic response... And we've seen that. To be honest the Tories deserve everything coming to them. They've ruined this country.

Given Granites post below regarding a certain Labour MP, some people need to be careful before throwing mud.

And which policies have caused these people to die? Spending cuts - the tower has just been renovated so hardly a cut back in spending. If money was that tight they wouldn't have bothered. Are these the same spending cuts that caused another tower block fire in 2009 and caused 6 deaths. I don't recall any Conservative MPS suggesting that Brown had blood on his hands.

Ive just seen on the news placards from the Socialist Workers stating that Tories have blood on their hands. That is a disgrace - if it causes a riot and further injuries, or worse, then I hope they are proud of themselves. Do you think it will be Theresa May whose house is burned out if this all kicks off? Some people need to grow up a lot - that includes you.

[Sandydragon]

On another note, do people not realise that the police won't confirm deaths until they can actually recover bodies? We all think that there are more than the current number of deaths, but until they are identified, they cannot confirm that someone has died. The police aren't lying by quoting a lower number, thats the only information they can release at the moment.

But hey, it all feeds the anger, right. Lets combine that anger with the Labour Party's request for a million people to march on Downing Street and demand that the largest party in the commons step aside for a party with 50 less seats.

[Digby]

If your politics causes people to die don't be surprised if you get an atavistic response... And we've seen that. To be honest the Tories deserve everything coming to them. They've ruined this country.

What have the Tories materially changed from the last Labour government, and how did Labour's policy at the last election differ when it came to refurbishment of such housing? I'd have thought in the main none of the parties were doing much about anything in this area, so it's hardly just the Tories, and for a ruined country there still seems to be an awful lot going right!

[Sandydragon]

And now the rent a mob are involved. The storming of the Kensington Council offices includes people who aren't from the area.

This anger (which is completely justifiable from the tower residents) is being stirred up. Predictable and sad in equal measure.

[Zhivago]

You guys have your heads in the sand. Tories have ripped up the fabric of our society.

[kk67]

And now the rent a mob are involved. The storming of the Kensington Council offices includes people who aren't from the area.

This anger (which is completely justifiable from the tower residents) is being stirred up. Predictable and sad in equal measure.

Every cause has rabble-rousers, Sandy. They can also wear religious garb, suit and tie, military uniform or even sackcloth.

[canta_brian]

If your politics causes people to die don't be surprised if you get an atavistic response... And we've seen that. To be honest the Tories deserve everything coming to them. They've ruined this country.

What have the Tories materially changed from the last Labour government, and how did Labour's policy at the last election differ when it came to refurbishment of such housing? I'd have thought in the main none of the parties were doing much about anything in this area, so it's hardly just the Tories, and for a ruined country there still seems to be an awful lot going right!

Well there is this

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/

[Donny osmond]

Theres also this

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 1.html?amp

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[Sandydragon]

Theres also this

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics ... 1.html?amp

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Glass houses and stones...

[Sandydragon]

And now the rent a mob are involved. The storming of the Kensington Council offices includes people who aren't from the area.

This anger (which is completely justifiable from the tower residents) is being stirred up. Predictable and sad in equal measure.

Every cause has rabble-rousers, Sandy. They can also wear religious garb, suit and tie, military uniform or even sackcloth.

That's lovely. Is it funny when a riot is provoked and more people get hurt, or worse, because of political pointscoring? Political leaders have a responsibility to calm situations like these down, not aggravate.

[kk67]

That's lovely. Is it funny when a riot is provoked and more people get hurt, or worse, because of political pointscoring? Political leaders have a responsibility to calm situations like these down, not aggravate.

No, it's not funny. It's always sad seeing people swept along by collective emotion.

[Digby]

If your politics causes people to die don't be surprised if you get an atavistic response... And we've seen that. To be honest the Tories deserve everything coming to them. They've ruined this country.

What have the Tories materially changed from the last Labour government, and how did Labour's policy at the last election differ when it came to refurbishment of such housing? I'd have thought in the main none of the parties were doing much about anything in this area, so it's hardly just the Tories, and for a ruined country there still seems to be an awful lot going right!

Well there is this

http://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/c ... ted/14/06/

Which part illustrates the Grenferll Tower fire would have been averted? The bills may or mayn't be good, but on a cursory glance they don't look relevant.

[Coco]

The local MP, Emma Dent Coad (Lab), has been quoted as saying:
"I can’t help thinking that poor quality materials and construction standards may have played a part in this hideous and unforgivable event..."
and

There are now reports that to go from the seemingly low quality cladding tiles which are illegal in Germany and illegal on buildings over 40ft in the USA up to actual fire resistant tiles would have cost around £5,000 extra for the entire building. If true that's just so pathetic it's hard to know what to do with those who went cheap

In California a lot more is required including fire sprinklers in each room or living area, no wood burning fireplaces (only gas), a whole slew of earthquake regulations that pertain to fire prevention, steel framing in some cases, fireproof roofing...and more.

[Sandydragon]

There are already laws on construction standards,gas safety, fire safety and so on.what exactly were Corbyns proposed laws supposed to address that isn't aleady covered. Did they include specific requirements for cladding, because if not then how would they have prevented this.

For example, one of the tenants has reported that fire extinguishers were not tested. That's already covered in legislation and if proven will get the landlords into hot water. So unlesss someone can state how Corbyns proposed laws would have prevented this catastrophe, then it's all just posturing.