RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote:I’m beginning to think we should only have 2 regions. Fund them properly with decent coaches and we might see something decent.

East and West? Cardiff and Scarlets?

If it were a blank piece of paper then I’d go east and west. All our regions with none of the club baggage, accepting that the bigger games would be limited to certain stadiums.

More likely is Scarlets and Cardiff.

Tbh I think you've got the talent to support 4 regions. It's just the finance which is an issue. How are you doing with attendances? I've not looked in a while. Have they improved at all since it was taken off free to air tv? That's really the key. It's what keep the Irish provinces going.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Tbh I think you've got the talent to support 4 regions. It's just the finance which is an issue. How are you doing with attendances? I've not looked in a while. Have they improved at all since it was taken off free to air tv? That's really the key. It's what keep the Irish provinces going.

No significant change in attendance, in general. The problem is that supporters don’t get excited by the PRO14 and won’t support crap teams. I think the Scalrets attendance did pick up last season, which does support that some fans will come along when a team is winning, but we remain a long way below English teams for attendance for most matches.

But even then, I still hear many complaints that the PRO14 isn’t as good as playing English teams would be. It’s a hang up many of our supporters have.

Sandydragon wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Tbh I think you've got the talent to support 4 regions. It's just the finance which is an issue. How are you doing with attendances? I've not looked in a while. Have they improved at all since it was taken off free to air tv? That's really the key. It's what keep the Irish provinces going.

No significant change in attendance, in general. The problem is that supporters don’t get excited by the PRO14 and won’t support crap teams. I think the Scalrets attendance did pick up last season, which does support that some fans will come along when a team is winning, but we remain a long way below English teams for attendance for most matches.

But even then, I still hear many complaints that the PRO14 isn’t as good as playing English teams would be. It’s a hang up many of our supporters have.

I recall...

You need people to want to go to see their team. There's got to be a way of doing that somehow before they start winning regularly because they aren't all going to be successful all the time. Success will always be a factor but it needs to be what pushes you from sustainable to full houses rather than to sustainable.

I’m a firm believer that if a team is winning, it will be supported. None of our regions has been that successful since their inauguration to keep that sustained level of support.

Our problem is that the regions lol too much like clubs and they either need to move onto become proper regions or be proper clubs. The half way house just doesn’t work.

Even then, some supporters will want them to fold completely and to resuscitate the old Welsh prem.

I don't know how bad the finances are but there are enough good players to for four regions. But if some or all are facing collapse then something needs to be done. FInancially, a WRU takeover or major shareholding in each of the regions would probably make sense - outside of the derbies we want Welsh rugby to be working together - the rugby world's competitive enough without infighting.

If we need to lose a team (or have one demoted to a development side) it would seem obvious that the Dragons are the one since they have clearly and consistently been the worst performing region by some margin. But this would be sad and I'd prefer to keep them alive.

Is North Wales populous enough to support a region? The numbers are there but possibly too dispersed.

Perhaps it would make most sense to form a North & East region (or perhaps "East" - covering the whole border from Newport to Flintshire) from the Dragons and the North?

I really don’t think the supporters are there in the north to make it viable. A borders team would cover that off but that’s a long drive for supporters now.

Sandydragon wrote:I really don’t think the supporters are there in the north to make it viable. A borders team would cover that off but that’s a long drive for supporters now.

It's entirely possible that only the South is viable. I guess the info they have from RGC should tell them this...

Ideally the restructure would be of ownership (with the WRU taking more) and not of the the teams themselves.

Cardiff were well beaten by Munster in the end but were well in it at half time, showing glimpses of the clinical finishing they used on the Scarlets recently.

No idea why Tomos Williams was taken off early, though - he was superb.

Ospreys did what they had to do, against poor opposition.

Scarlets started well but totally blew it against Edinburgh in the second half, despite having a very strong team - lots of Grand Slam winners slotting back into the team. Worrying that (most of) the future Wales coaches couldn't do any better with such a strong team at their disposal.

Dragons forced to accept a draw... probably a little hard done by the ref disallowing a Rhodri Williams try towards the end. Brilliant individual try by Jordan Williams.

But they really need to be beating the Kings - everyone else does.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Ospreys did what they had to do, against poor opposition.

Scarlets started well but totally blew it against Edinburgh in the second half, despite having a very strong team - lots of Grand Slam winners slotting back into the team. Worrying that (most of) the future Wales coaches couldn't do any better with such a strong team at their disposal.

Other than second row where we are weak, I wrote this season off when Blade Thompson, Cubby and Ball got injured.

Numbers wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Ospreys did what they had to do, against poor opposition.

Scarlets started well but totally blew it against Edinburgh in the second half, despite having a very strong team - lots of Grand Slam winners slotting back into the team. Worrying that (most of) the future Wales coaches couldn't do any better with such a strong team at their disposal.

Other than second row where we are weak, I wrote this season off when Blade Thompson, Cubby and Ball got injured.

But this is only Edinburgh, and at PyS. And Cubby is back. It's ironic that the Scarlets were doing best when one of their best former players - Barclay - was on the pitch for Edinburgh.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Numbers wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Ospreys did what they had to do, against poor opposition.

Scarlets started well but totally blew it against Edinburgh in the second half, despite having a very strong team - lots of Grand Slam winners slotting back into the team. Worrying that (most of) the future Wales coaches couldn't do any better with such a strong team at their disposal.

Other than second row where we are weak, I wrote this season off when Blade Thompson, Cubby and Ball got injured.

But this is only Edinburgh, and at PyS. And Cubby is back. It's ironic that the Scarlets were doing best when one of their best former players - Barclay - was on the pitch for Edinburgh.

Do you mean Edinburgh who got to the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup and should have beaten Munster barring a brainfart from one of their players?

Numbers wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Numbers wrote:
Other than second row where we are weak, I wrote this season off when Blade Thompson, Cubby and Ball got injured.

But this is only Edinburgh, and at PyS. And Cubby is back. It's ironic that the Scarlets were doing best when one of their best former players - Barclay - was on the pitch for Edinburgh.

Do you mean Edinburgh who got to the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup and should have beaten Munster barring a brainfart from one of their players?

Yeah, true, but it's not like it was Leinster or Munster or Glasgow. Edinburgh are improving, but they're still a middle of the table team.

Connacht v Blues. Ospreys and Blues effectively knocked out of the playoffs by the Irish TMO.

Harries' try disallowed by the TMO when he clearly grounded the ball before his hand hit touch.
What looked like a knock on dismissed by the TMO 10 minutes later to allow a Connacht try.
Even Connacht's first try looked like it came from a forward pop-pass.

Outrageous that this should be allowed. Quite simply, it isn't allowed in internationals and it shouldn't be in any professional match. It needs to stop but everyone pretends it isn't happening. Total bullshit.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Connacht v Blues. Ospreys and Blues effectively knocked out of the playoffs by the Irish TMO.

Harris try disallowed by the TMO when he clearly grounded the ball before his hand hit touch.
What looked like a knock on dismissed by the TMO 10 minutes later to allow a Connacht try.
Even Connacht's first try looked like it came from a forward pop-pass.

Outrageous that this should be allowed. Quite simply, it isn't allowed in internationals and it shouldn't be in any professional match. It needs to stop but everyone pretends it isn't happening. Total bullshit.

The meekness of the TV commemtators doesn't help. "That's tight!" "That's a marginal one!" "Tough call!" - enough. There are pictures. The facts are clear. There's no such thing as "close". The Harris incident - outrageous as it was - is barely even notable. This is happening in nearly every game.

Sourdust wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:Connacht v Blues. Ospreys and Blues effectively knocked out of the playoffs by the Irish TMO.

Harris try disallowed by the TMO when he clearly grounded the ball before his hand hit touch.
What looked like a knock on dismissed by the TMO 10 minutes later to allow a Connacht try.
Even Connacht's first try looked like it came from a forward pop-pass.

Outrageous that this should be allowed. Quite simply, it isn't allowed in internationals and it shouldn't be in any professional match. It needs to stop but everyone pretends it isn't happening. Total bullshit.

The meekness of the TV commemtators doesn't help. "That's tight!" "That's a marginal one!" "Tough call!" - enough. There are pictures. The facts are clear. There's no such thing as "close". The Harris incident - outrageous as it was - is barely even notable. This is happening in nearly every game.

The commentary was hilarious. On seeing the slow-mo pictures, the Welsh commentator said "that's a try" - because it was that obvious. The Irish commentator strangely had no opinion. Then when the TMO's decision came, the Welsh guy got into line and accepted it. It's like they're under orders not to disagree with the officials no matter what.

This should be discussed. Hopefully but will be in ScrumV... not that it will make any difference - this has been going on for years. I've lost count of how many close matches we've lost in Ireland as a result of this*.


* Not all obviously - most are won fair and square - but it doesn't take many to knock your season off course.

Luckily no decisions ever go the other way, so Irish teams have achieved their dominance through blind luck and cheating officials.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Luckily no decisions ever go the other way, so Irish teams have achieved their dominance through blind luck and cheating officials.

Attack of the straw men

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Luckily no decisions ever go the other way, so Irish teams have achieved their dominance through blind luck and cheating officials.

Attack of the straw men

Actually it was just hyperbole. I'd assumed that because I'd only been half watching the game that given the outrage it must have a fair basis in fact. In fact they were much more marginal.

My point really is that we tend to accept the close decisions that go our way and remember the ones that didn't, no matter how fair minded we try to be.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Luckily no decisions ever go the other way, so Irish teams have achieved their dominance through blind luck and cheating officials.

Attack of the straw men

Actually it was just hyperbole. I'd assumed that because I'd only been half watching the game that given the outrage it must have a fair basis in fact. In fact they were much more marginal.

My point really is that we tend to accept the close decisions that go our way and remember the ones that didn't, no matter how fair minded we try to be.

What do you actually think about the decisions in the match in question?
(On a second look, but without frame-by-frame analysis, Connacht's first try was from a fairly clear forward pass, Harries' try was clearly good and I didn't have a good shot of the possible k-o for the last Connacht try. Also, Connacht gave away 5 penalties trying to keep Cardiff out between the 57th and 69th minutes without getting a yellow.)

More generally, what do you think about officials (particularly the ref or TMO) being drawn from the same unions as the teams?

My main point is that I wouldn't trust you or me to TMO that match. We might be biased - we shouldn't be eligible.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Attack of the straw men

Actually it was just hyperbole. I'd assumed that because I'd only been half watching the game that given the outrage it must have a fair basis in fact. In fact they were much more marginal.

My point really is that we tend to accept the close decisions that go our way and remember the ones that didn't, no matter how fair minded we try to be.

What do you actually think about the decisions in the match in question?
(On a second look, but without frame-by-frame analysis, Connacht's first try was from a fairly clear forward pass, Harries' try was clearly good and I didn't have a good shot of the possible k-o for the last Connacht try. Also, Connacht gave away 5 penalties trying to keep Cardiff out between the 57th and 69th minutes without getting a yellow.)

More generally, what do you think about officials (particularly the ref or TMO) being drawn from the same unions as the teams?

My main point is that I wouldn't trust you or me to TMO that match. We might be biased - we shouldn't be eligible.

Exactly. It puts the referees in a very poor position.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Attack of the straw men

Actually it was just hyperbole. I'd assumed that because I'd only been half watching the game that given the outrage it must have a fair basis in fact. In fact they were much more marginal.

My point really is that we tend to accept the close decisions that go our way and remember the ones that didn't, no matter how fair minded we try to be.

What do you actually think about the decisions in the match in question?
(On a second look, but without frame-by-frame analysis, Connacht's first try was from a fairly clear forward pass, Harries' try was clearly good and I didn't have a good shot of the possible k-o for the last Connacht try. Also, Connacht gave away 5 penalties trying to keep Cardiff out between the 57th and 69th minutes without getting a yellow.)

More generally, what do you think about officials (particularly the ref or TMO) being drawn from the same unions as the teams?

My main point is that I wouldn't trust you or me to TMO that match. We might be biased - we shouldn't be eligible.

First Connacht try was probably ok. The issue isn't whether the ball travelled forward which I think it did, but whether or not it was thrown forward. Ref and TMO were happy that it wasn't, given the enormous gale blowing. The try from the kick off looked dodgier but I'm not sure you'd ever get a clear enough shot and be able to sufficiently disentangle the backwards motion from the forwards motion.

The Cardiff try wasn't clearly ok, but it might have been fine. Personally I didn't see any conclusive evidence to rule it out. One camera view looked like a try. The other was less clear cut though simultaneous seemed to me a cop out. I frankly didn't care enough to worry, but even watching it after your complaint it was pretty close.

I think that there should certainly be entirely neutral officials. It just removes one stick for crowds/fans to beat them with, but it won't stop the complaints. If you doubt that, you should see the paranoid ravings by some on the URSC Facebook page. I would also observe that the ref was neutral and the decision rested with him. I think that it's only 1 part of the issue though and what they need is for an on-field decision to be taken in real time and only overturned if there is clear evidence that it is wrong. Looking frame by frame for a minute decision and pretending that 2 dimensional images will always give answers for 3 dimensional events is just silly. I would restrict the use of the TMO to appeals by the captain and give them only 2 a half.