Future England Squad

[Timbo]

There’s an argument to say Shields is actually of about the perfect standard- a generally competent, but limited international 6- for Willis to measure himself against and push past.

But I wouldn’t worry about game time for Willis, personally. First choice or not, attrition rates in Prem back rows (especially at Wasps for whatever reason) means he’ll play loads if fit.

[Mellsblue]

Part of a young players transition is trying to oust the incumbent. Willis will still get plenty of game time and it is upon him to take his opportunities. He has the potential certainly, but has had a seriously rough time with injuries and is still really on his comeback trail. Stay fit, take his opportunity and he should become first choice.

Now if he were at Tigers I’d be more worried about his opportunity for game time (proof will be in the pudding ad to whether we’re actually changing). But wasps and Young have already given him opportunity and obviously see the potential in him.

Fair enough. It’s a subjective thing. I’d just rather that if he were trying to oust someone it were a test class player. I suppose part of my issue is that he looks a special talent that shouldn’t be held back and the other part is that the guy potentially slowing his progress has been brought over specifically to be fast tracked into the England team only to be a average to good premiership player. I’m also influenced by the fact that our replacement backrow for Arg may have made his international debut prior to the warm up matches had he not had his way blocked by average players at his club that he eventually proved to be superior to. I’d agree that Young has a better attitude to youth than Mallinder; however, I’d still rather Willis was getting 60mins against the big boys and rested against lesser oppo than 20 mins against the big boys and 80mins against London Irish.

I think you may be overworrying. Willis has consistently made his way to being first choice when fit, demanding it with performances, and he's got an ideal showcase in the Prem Cup to stake his claim. He'll be first choice at season start and it'll be Young, Carr, and Shields scrapping over the other two shirts.

Puja

I’m not saying it will happen. My initial post on the subject started with the word ‘if’ in reaction to a few posts stating Willis may not be first choice. It was also more of a dig at Edward Jones than Wasps, Dai Young etc

[Stom]

There’s an argument to say Shields is actually of about the perfect standard- a generally competent, but limited international 6- for Willis to measure himself against and push past.

But I wouldn’t worry about game time for Willis, personally. First choice or not, attrition rates in Prem back rows (especially at Wasps for whatever reason) means he’ll play loads if fit.

I agree with this.

You can't expect a young backrow to NOT get gametime.

At Quins, however, it's more interesting. Evans looks good but how do we squeeze him in? And Lawday? Jeez.

[Banquo]

Willis is approaching 23, so he's at the age when you'd 'expect' him to be a first choice tbh, and he would be imo, but for injury. Now is his time to claim the shirt (whether its 6 or 7), and I think he will.

[Mellsblue]

There’s an argument to say Shields is actually of about the perfect standard- a generally competent, but limited international 6- for Willis to measure himself against and push past.

But I wouldn’t worry about game time for Willis, personally. First choice or not, attrition rates in Prem back rows (especially at Wasps for whatever reason) means he’ll play loads if fit.

As previous, the original pointed started with an ‘if’ in response to someone else’s point. I’d pick Willis over Shields 10/10 and I do expect him to get plenty of game time. It was more Jones’s decision to bring Shields over and fast track him into the EQP and now someone, not me, mooted the possibility that Shields will stunt the growth of someone who could/should actually be a top test 6.

As for Shields being the perfect standard. I’d rather a top test player the young EQP can learn from and then replace, eg Jones and Sinckler, or the young EQP learning on the pitch. Shields seems like the middle ground of meh.

[Mikey Brown]

I’ve knocked Shields a whole lot because of him not earning his England shirt, but I’m sure he does have a whole lot more to offer as a club player than we’ve seen so far.

[Puja]

I’ve knocked Shields a whole lot because of him not earning his England shirt, but I’m sure he does have a whole lot more to offer as a club player than we’ve seen so far.

True - if it wasn't for him being overpromoted to England without reason, we'd all be quite sanguine about youngsters learning from the knowledge of someone who's played for many years at the top level of NZ rugby.

Puja

[Banquo]

What 'role' do we feel he is best suited to?

[Digby]

What 'role' do we feel he is best suited to?

Obviously 12, if he can develop a kicking game

[Banquo]

What 'role' do we feel he is best suited to?

Obviously 12, if he can develop a kicking game

The gift that never starts giving

[Stom]

What 'role' do we feel he is best suited to?

tackle bag holder?

Honestly...he's a big guy who jumps well in the l/o. But he carries below his size, he's not super quick, his hands are surprising for a player who grew up in NZ, his defence is good, but not really close to international 6 good...

I don't see any area where he stands out, other than a set-piece loose forward.

And, for me, that's ridiculous. Flanks need to be everywhere, imo.

[Banquo]

What 'role' do we feel he is best suited to?

tackle bag holder?

Honestly...he's a big guy who jumps well in the l/o. But he carries below his size, he's not super quick, his hands are surprising for a player who grew up in NZ, his defence is good, but not really close to international 6 good...

I don't see any area where he stands out, other than a set-piece loose forward.

And, for me, that's ridiculous. Flanks need to be everywhere, imo.

my very bad, I meant Jack Willis

[Stom]

What 'role' do we feel he is best suited to?

tackle bag holder?

Honestly...he's a big guy who jumps well in the l/o. But he carries below his size, he's not super quick, his hands are surprising for a player who grew up in NZ, his defence is good, but not really close to international 6 good...

I don't see any area where he stands out, other than a set-piece loose forward.

And, for me, that's ridiculous. Flanks need to be everywhere, imo.

my very bad, I meant Jack Willis

Lol.

The Hill role, then. He can be the glue to build the backrow around depending on the kind of game we want to play. If he can kick on, as he was looking seriously good.

Just hope he's not another Wasps backrow

[Mellsblue]

I’ve knocked Shields a whole lot because of him not earning his England shirt, but I’m sure he does have a whole lot more to offer as a club player than we’ve seen so far.

True - if it wasn't for him being overpromoted to England without reason, we'd all be quite sanguine about youngsters learning from the knowledge of someone who's played for many years at the top level of NZ rugby.

Puja

Well let’s hope he does prove to offer a whole lot more. Meh, I’ve no interest in players who just have Super Rugby experience. Especially one that is just a NH style backrow player. Maybe someone like Nanai-Williams who would bring a different type of player to the Prem but, from his performances so far, Shields is basically a slightly better Jamie Gibson with a beard. I would be happy to be proved wrong over the course of this season.

[Mikey Brown]

Technically you could be proven wrong as soon as he shaves his beard off.

[Mellsblue]

Technically you could be proven wrong as soon as he shaves his beard off.

I have been proved wrong by such simply acts on many occasions.

[Beasties]

Given what Eddie was looking for in a 7 a year or two ago I'd have had him nailed on for Eng at 7 by now in preference to Underhill/Curry, but then the injuries struck just as he was about to be seen at close quarters by Eddie. It was sad for him at the time of course but the intervening period seems to have seen a shift in Eddie's mind. He's dropped the whole 6.25/6.5 bollocks that we've been stuck with for a thousand years and picked players who are actual 7s. Eddie was picking The Hask at 7 up til then and looked set to give Super Hask a go before Underhill/Curry. I can't imagine anyone isn't relieved at this development, apart from the obv person. Christ, we're even playing 7s at 6 now

[Mikey Brown]

That's the real question. If a 6 at 7 is a 6.5. What is a 7 at 6 called?

Also I don't actually think EJ has any strict ideas on this. He just loves announcing that he has strong opinions and defying any outside influence to change his mind, even if he eventually does.

Manu is never a 13. Robshaw is never 7. Cipriani will get a shot if he earns it etc.

[Banquo]

That's the real question. If a 6 at 7 is a 6.5. What is a 7 at 6 called?

Also I don't actually think EJ has any strict ideas on this. He just loves announcing that he has strong opinions and defying any outside influence to change his mind, even if he eventually does.

Manu is never a 13. Robshaw is never 7. Cipriani will get a shot if he earns it etc.

1.5 out of 3 aint bad

[Mellsblue]

Been on the Willis bus since first time I saw him play, good to see others rate him though. He's always looked strong enough which was quite something at his age. Good to see that the likes of Curry, Ludlam and Underhill have grown into their man strength now and are putting in some eye catching performances at test level. I'm not even sure Willis will become nailed on now for Eng which is a bloody good place to be. We've got aome cracking talent.

Indeed. Imagine if we’d had Jake Polledri too!

[Banquo]

Given what Eddie was looking for in a 7 a year or two ago I'd have had him nailed on for Eng at 7 by now in preference to Underhill/Curry, but then the injuries struck just as he was about to be seen at close quarters by Eddie. It was sad for him at the time of course but the intervening period seems to have seen a shift in Eddie's mind. He's dropped the whole 6.25/6.5 bollocks that we've been stuck with for a thousand years and picked players who are actual 7s. Eddie was picking The Hask at 7 up til then and looked set to give Super Hask a go before Underhill/Curry. I can't imagine anyone isn't relieved at this development, apart from the obv person. Christ, we're even playing 7s at 6 now

I was thinking the same- he struck me as having the skills to do a very decent job as a large Michael Hooper

[Banquo]

Been on the Willis bus since first time I saw him play, good to see others rate him though. He's always looked strong enough which was quite something at his age. Good to see that the likes of Curry, Ludlam and Underhill have grown into their man strength now and are putting in some eye catching performances at test level. I'm not even sure Willis will become nailed on now for Eng which is a bloody good place to be. We've got aome cracking talent.

Indeed. Imagine if we’d had Jake Polledri too!

always liked the cut of his jib, I wasn't as sanguine as most about him choosing Italy.

on that note, uncontested scrums as both Italy tightheads crocked. Imagine if they hadn't planned for that event.....

[Digby]

If he can kick...

so it's not just me

[Digby]

on that note, uncontested scrums as both Italy tightheads crocked. Imagine if they hadn't planned for that event.....

Are Italy down to 14 then?

And on the other point I think Polledri would struggle to make that impact if anyone gave a fudge about Italy's attack

[Banquo]

on that note, uncontested scrums as both Italy tightheads crocked. Imagine if they hadn't planned for that event.....

Are Italy down to 14 then?

And on the other point I think Polledri would struggle to make that impact if anyone gave a fudge about Italy's attack

bit of a hypothetical, and he can only play what's in front of him. If he made half that impact, it''d be worth having in any case.