RugbyRebels

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:1. I'm not patriotic, couldn't care less about calling myself Scottish, British or European. In or out... meh

2. The idea that a parliament based in Brussels can oversee a set of laws/protocols that effectively govern all the disparate cultures and regions of Europe, when individual country parliaments can barely do the same for their much smaller regions I find laughable. In or out... Out

3. The idea of putting up trade barriers with our closest friends, allies and trading partners seems daft. In or out... In

4. If the big powers in Europe are going to take the huff and marginalize us for leaving, and its hard to see that they aren't, what's the point in alienating our closest friends etc? In or out... In.

Can I be arsed carrying on with this? No.

Do on balance, in. But really, DGAF

Friends is a poor choice or word imo. They want to get as much out of us as possible

Fair point. I'm not naive enough to think that friendship between countries exists in the same way as between people. On the flip side, a prosperous EU helps the UK, and vice versa, so from that point of view we want the best for each other, which could be seen as friendship, in a way, if you squint a bit...

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WTF? I have an XT1052????

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Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:1. I'm not patriotic, couldn't care less about calling myself Scottish, British or European. In or out... meh

2. The idea that a parliament based in Brussels can oversee a set of laws/protocols that effectively govern all the disparate cultures and regions of Europe, when individual country parliaments can barely do the same for their much smaller regions I find laughable. In or out... Out

3. The idea of putting up trade barriers with our closest friends, allies and trading partners seems daft. In or out... In

4. If the big powers in Europe are going to take the huff and marginalize us for leaving, and its hard to see that they aren't, what's the point in alienating our closest friends etc? In or out... In.

Can I be arsed carrying on with this? No.

Do on balance, in. But really, DGAF

Friends is a poor choice or word imo. They want to get as much out of us as possible

Fair point. I'm not naive enough to think that friendship between countries exists in the same way as between people. On the flip side, a prosperous EU helps the UK, and vice versa, so from that point of view we want the best for each other, which could be seen as friendship, in a way, if you squint a bit...

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Any signs of a prosperous EU on the horizon?

Frankly, I can't see that any scanning of events since 2008 suggests that there is any value whatsoever in the EU.

It's a neoliberal insane asylum that no one in their right mind would want anything to do with.

Do people not understand how badly the EU (and especially the EZ) technocrats have performed? Do they not understand the agenda?

Are people so confused by the propaganda and the weasel words that they can't see the damage that these puffed up stuffed suits are inflicting?

UGagain wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

OptimisticJock wrote: Friends is a poor choice or word imo. They want to get as much out of us as possible

Fair point. I'm not naive enough to think that friendship between countries exists in the same way as between people. On the flip side, a prosperous EU helps the UK, and vice versa, so from that point of view we want the best for each other, which could be seen as friendship, in a way, if you squint a bit...

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Any signs of a prosperous EU on the horizon?

Frankly, I can't see that any scanning of events since 2008 suggests that there is any value whatsoever in the EU.

It's a neoliberal insane asylum that no one in their right mind would want anything to do with.

Do people not understand how badly the EU (and especially the EZ) technocrats have performed? Do they not understand the agenda?

Are people so confused by the propaganda and the weasel words that they can't see the damage that these puffed up stuffed suits are inflicting?

Heyyy, welcome back mate, been too long, although you didn't miss much in the interim boards.

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Lizard wrote:Historically speaking, the EU will eventually fall apart sooner or later, as all other forms of European integration have (Roman Empire, Holy Roman Empire, Napoleon's Empire, Third Reich etc etc. Taking the long view, Britain being in or out of the EU at various times will be seen as fairly irrelevant.

An association by consensus is likely to last longer than one held together by force, the eu already has Napoleon and Adolf licked.

But there is the nub. There is definitely a growing anger at being part of the eu across much of Europe. It's not massively surprising, big financial upheavals tend to have political impacts against ruling organisations and the eu fits right into that. Add to that the bureaucratic complexities of the eu, the removal of democratic rights from nation states and this further away from voters and it's not hard to see the down side.

The eu isn't all bad. Some elements of legislation I quite like, but in balance, I'm not seeing why we should be involved politically with Europe. I'm all,for a free trade area, but you don't need to be joined at the hip to enjoy the benefits of that.

It would be great if the out party(ies) actually gave a vision of how Britain could survive and thrive outside of the eu, as per our membership today. Sadly both sides seems intent on exploiting the fear factor.

People are making a big deal about Europe not being democratic but proper democracy is still a pretty new thing in much of Europe. All of the former Eastern Bloc are barely a voting generation out of communism. Spain and Portugal were military dictatorships until less than a year ago. Even the UK has an unelected Head of State.

Lizard wrote:People are making a big deal about Europe not being democratic but proper democracy is still a pretty new thing in much of Europe. All of the former Eastern Bloc are barely a voting generation out of communism. Spain and Portugal were military dictatorships until less than a year ago. Even the UK has an unelected Head of State.

I think you'll find that a substantial number of Western European nations have unelected Heads of State:-
Belgium
Denmark
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom

"Spain and Portugal were military dictatorships until less than a year ago"
What did you mean to write here? Spain became a democracy with a new constitution in 1978 and Portugal in 1976.

There are two main reasons for voting in, as far as I can see.

1) It gives protection to workers rights. I want to be able to pick the time to gain Hungarian citizenship, not have it foisted upon me by a UK government I didn't vote for.

2) It gives recourse to the European courts. As much as they may be imperfect, in a UK in which the current government are returned to power with a majority, people need access to higher courts to protect their rights. I don't want to find myself, or have my family find themselves, in a crappy situation thanks to something the UK government does that the EU courts would have rejected.

The EU may need drastic reform, as UKH says, but we cannot do that from outside.

Stom wrote:There are two main reasons for voting in, as far as I can see.

1) It gives protection to workers rights. I want to be able to pick the time to gain Hungarian citizenship, not have it foisted upon me by a UK government I didn't vote for.

2) It gives recourse to the European courts. As much as they may be imperfect, in a UK in which the current government are returned to power with a majority, people need access to higher courts to protect their rights. I don't want to find myself, or have my family find themselves, in a crappy situation thanks to something the UK government does that the EU courts would have rejected.

The EU may need drastic reform, as UKH says, but we cannot do that from outside.

Well in that case, I hope you are personally consulted before the final in/out decision is taken. Regardless of the referendum result.

Stom wrote:There are two main reasons for voting in, as far as I can see.

1) It gives protection to workers rights. I want to be able to pick the time to gain Hungarian citizenship, not have it foisted upon me by a UK government I didn't vote for.

2) It gives recourse to the European courts. As much as they may be imperfect, in a UK in which the current government are returned to power with a majority, people need access to higher courts to protect their rights. I don't want to find myself, or have my family find themselves, in a crappy situation thanks to something the UK government does that the EU courts would have rejected.

The EU may need drastic reform, as UKH says, but we cannot do that from outside.

I don't understand the workers' rights argument. Has everyone been asleep while the Troika and the Commission have been unilaterally eviscerating labour rights in Southern Europe?

Leaving the EU would not take the UK out of the European Court of Human Rights. It's not an EU court in my understanding.

The EU is run by an unelected dictatorship of big capital. It is inflicting a depression on the majority of its citizens without remorse.

It is no saviour to anyone other than the stinking rich.

UGagain wrote:

Stom wrote:There are two main reasons for voting in, as far as I can see.

1) It gives protection to workers rights. I want to be able to pick the time to gain Hungarian citizenship, not have it foisted upon me by a UK government I didn't vote for.

2) It gives recourse to the European courts. As much as they may be imperfect, in a UK in which the current government are returned to power with a majority, people need access to higher courts to protect their rights. I don't want to find myself, or have my family find themselves, in a crappy situation thanks to something the UK government does that the EU courts would have rejected.

The EU may need drastic reform, as UKH says, but we cannot do that from outside.

I don't understand the workers' rights argument. Has everyone been asleep while the Troika and the Commission have been unilaterally eviscerating labour rights in Southern Europe?

Leaving the EU would not take the UK out of the European Court of Human Rights. It's not an EU court in my understanding.

The EU is run by an unelected dictatorship of big capital. It is inflicting a depression on the majority of its citizens without remorse.

It is no saviour to anyone other than the stinking rich.

It gives more guarantees to me than I would get if the UK were not in the EU. As much as we talk about greater good, if a policy is going to have a drastic effect on myself, I'm going to take a strong interest in it. If the UK leaves the EU, there is a small chance I can have my workers rights revoked. I don't want to HAVE to take Hungarian citizenship for that.

As far as I understand, the ECHR isn't an EU institution, but is included as a criteria...

Stom wrote:

UGagain wrote:

Stom wrote:There are two main reasons for voting in, as far as I can see.

1) It gives protection to workers rights. I want to be able to pick the time to gain Hungarian citizenship, not have it foisted upon me by a UK government I didn't vote for.

2) It gives recourse to the European courts. As much as they may be imperfect, in a UK in which the current government are returned to power with a majority, people need access to higher courts to protect their rights. I don't want to find myself, or have my family find themselves, in a crappy situation thanks to something the UK government does that the EU courts would have rejected.

The EU may need drastic reform, as UKH says, but we cannot do that from outside.

I don't understand the workers' rights argument. Has everyone been asleep while the Troika and the Commission have been unilaterally eviscerating labour rights in Southern Europe?

Leaving the EU would not take the UK out of the European Court of Human Rights. It's not an EU court in my understanding.

The EU is run by an unelected dictatorship of big capital. It is inflicting a depression on the majority of its citizens without remorse.

It is no saviour to anyone other than the stinking rich.

It gives more guarantees to me than I would get if the UK were not in the EU. As much as we talk about greater good, if a policy is going to have a drastic effect on myself, I'm going to take a strong interest in it. If the UK leaves the EU, there is a small chance I can have my workers rights revoked. I don't want to HAVE to take Hungarian citizenship for that.

As far as I understand, the ECHR isn't an EU institution, but is included as a criteria...

I don't know how it would affect your residency so fair enough.

You're lucky Hungary isn't in the eurozone but the economic performance of the EU in general is a testament to both the leadership's stupidity and its venality.

Is there any movement trying to push Hungary into the euro?

UGagain wrote:

Stom wrote:

UGagain wrote:
I don't understand the workers' rights argument. Has everyone been asleep while the Troika and the Commission have been unilaterally eviscerating labour rights in Southern Europe?

Leaving the EU would not take the UK out of the European Court of Human Rights. It's not an EU court in my understanding.

The EU is run by an unelected dictatorship of big capital. It is inflicting a depression on the majority of its citizens without remorse.

It is no saviour to anyone other than the stinking rich.

It gives more guarantees to me than I would get if the UK were not in the EU. As much as we talk about greater good, if a policy is going to have a drastic effect on myself, I'm going to take a strong interest in it. If the UK leaves the EU, there is a small chance I can have my workers rights revoked. I don't want to HAVE to take Hungarian citizenship for that.

As far as I understand, the ECHR isn't an EU institution, but is included as a criteria...

I don't know how it would affect your residency so fair enough.

You're lucky Hungary isn't in the eurozone but the economic performance of the EU in general is a testament to both the leadership's stupidity and its venality.

Is there any movement trying to push Hungary into the euro?

Probably everyone else seems to be forced to take it on

Stones of granite wrote:

Lizard wrote:People are making a big deal about Europe not being democratic but proper democracy is still a pretty new thing in much of Europe. All of the former Eastern Bloc are barely a voting generation out of communism. Spain and Portugal were military dictatorships until less than a year ago. Even the UK has an unelected Head of State.

I think you'll find that a substantial number of Western European nations have unelected Heads of State:-
Belgium
Denmark
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom

"Spain and Portugal were military dictatorships until less than a year ago"
What did you mean to write here? Spain became a democracy with a new constitution in 1978 and Portugal in 1976.

Less than a year? I think I meant less than a generation. I blame the beer, ADHD, Tourettes and the other one.

We won't vote to leave

In.

Big picture - the EU makes war between the big European countries unthinkable, we need to keep it that way. Clearly the EU is not the only factor here, but anything that helps keep Britain, France and Germany from going to full scale war every few decades needs to be maintained.

Human rights, workers rights, social security - all of these are vital in a civilised society (IMHO), and being part of the EU will protect them against the intentions of our Conservative government and its rich backers.

Common market - exclusion from this will make us poorer.

Frankfurt will take more of the City of London's business if we leave the EU.

Boris has chosen OUT. Doesn't change my opinion - I still think he's a self-serving oaf.

Project Fear will swing into gear and rationality will lose.

Indeed. Just listen out for the "leap into the dark" line being trotted out relentlessly.

fivepointer wrote:Indeed. Just listen out for the "leap into the dark" line being trotted out relentlessly.

It's absurd, isn't it?

The dark looks a lot friendlier than most of the evil poltroons running Europe right now.

Can people even distinguish between the fluffy propaganda and the cold harsh reality of what is actually happening in Europe? And how they are polar opposites?

Europe is like a manual of how not to govern.

UGagain wrote:Project Fear will swing into gear and rationality will lose.

Propagandised to want a say, and propagandised to make the 'right' decision.

UGagain wrote:Project Fear will swing into gear and rationality will lose.

Unfortunately for all of us, Project Fear is going to swing both ways in this one.

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Donny osmond wrote:

UGagain wrote:Project Fear will swing into gear and rationality will lose.

Unfortunately for all of us, Project Fear is going to swing both ways in this one.

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I don't think the out camp has to resort to any fear mongering. They just need to point at what is actually happening in Europe.

It's insane. I just don't understand how anyone can look at that FUBAR management in Europe and not recoil in horror at what they've done.

It's hugely disappointing that Corbyn has become an inny. The 'left' is its own worst enemy.

The Tories are bad enough and economically clueless. But they're not as extreme as most of the European governments, even the notionally leftist ones.

Workers' rights my arse.

UGagain wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:

UGagain wrote:Project Fear will swing into gear and rationality will lose.

Unfortunately for all of us, Project Fear is going to swing both ways in this one.

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It's hugely disappointing that Corbyn has become an inny. The 'left' is its own worst enemy

We are Europeans, which means that the EU is where we belong. That it needs changing is obvious, but the answer is not to hide away on our little island, but rather to lead the way IN Europe to a better politics. We cannot take a leading European role from outside European politics, we must drive for the changes from within the union.

A union of countries is not inherently bad for workers, indeed it has given many workers the freedom to work where they like. What needs to happen is that this freedom does not impinge on others. Reform (or revolution) from WITHIN please.

UGagain wrote:

Stom wrote:

UGagain wrote:
I don't understand the workers' rights argument. Has everyone been asleep while the Troika and the Commission have been unilaterally eviscerating labour rights in Southern Europe?

Leaving the EU would not take the UK out of the European Court of Human Rights. It's not an EU court in my understanding.

The EU is run by an unelected dictatorship of big capital. It is inflicting a depression on the majority of its citizens without remorse.

It is no saviour to anyone other than the stinking rich.

It gives more guarantees to me than I would get if the UK were not in the EU. As much as we talk about greater good, if a policy is going to have a drastic effect on myself, I'm going to take a strong interest in it. If the UK leaves the EU, there is a small chance I can have my workers rights revoked. I don't want to HAVE to take Hungarian citizenship for that.

As far as I understand, the ECHR isn't an EU institution, but is included as a criteria...

I don't know how it would affect your residency so fair enough.

You're lucky Hungary isn't in the eurozone but the economic performance of the EU in general is a testament to both the leadership's stupidity and its venality.

Is there any movement trying to push Hungary into the euro?

There was a criteria, which if met would mean the Euro. The government pretty much admitted to purposefully weakening the currency so those criteria were not met. Hungary will never be in the Eurozone under this government, but it remains to be seen who appears as an alternative, as this government have gone completely loopy.

The options are:

Neo nazis - now the second biggest party, ffs.
"Socialists" - in name only, of course. The most corrupt parties, as there are 3 of them, all of them identical in both policy and ineptitude.
Modern social democrats - with no finance and a tiny vote share.

Of those, the socialists would likely bring in the Euro, the others not.

But this is an aside.

I like the idea of a European body. But I don't like the current one. It needs change, but I would like to be able to make that change, not be foisted out (Hungary is too small and too much on the periphery to make a difference).

A question for those who want change from within. Why do you think that change, meaningful change, will happen? This massive renegotiation has yielded very little. Why do you think that would change in the future? A major nation deciding to leave might trigger something.

Security is a red herring. The key facets of security are the five eyes agreements which won't change and NATO.

Civil rights. Britain had civil rights before the EU, it a poor argument to assume we won't have any more because we leave.

Consumer rights. I actually think the EU benefits here.

What is needed is some sensible analysis of how we could grow as a nation outside the EU. Come on out campaign, let here more about a rosy future and less about immigration, that's not the only issue.