RugbyRebels

Puja wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Up front is a huge issues. The only Tiger’s forward I’d want as Northampton would be Genge. The rest are all sub the Saints incumbents and most frankly sub premiership standard.

Youngs, Cole, Spencer, and Thompson are hardly bad players to work with. And I'm willing to bet that both Kitchener and Williams will look much more competent when in their new homes next season. We have more quality than our performances would suggest - we're just making the absolute least out of them.

Puja

Agreed. To be fair, it feels a lot like Quins and Saints last season. Plenty of good players, but poor team performances and coaching teams that weren’t able to inspire the players.

I didn’t really take the idea of Tigers being relegated seriously, but the next three games (Exeter @ home, Newcastle away and Bristol @ home) are massive. Particularly if Newcastle win today. I’d be surprised if Tigers beat Exeter and then I think the games against Newcastle and Bristol come down to who has the greater desire to stay up.

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Up front is a huge issues. The only Tiger’s forward I’d want as Northampton would be Genge. The rest are all sub the Saints incumbents and most frankly sub premiership standard.

Youngs, Cole, Spencer, and Thompson are hardly bad players to work with. And I'm willing to bet that both Kitchener and Williams will look much more competent when in their new homes next season. We have more quality than our performances would suggest - we're just making the absolute least out of them.

Puja

Those first four might be adequate squad players in/out of the 23 and not letting the side down - IF the other 9 forwards were top quality in the Leicester tradition. How the hell a guy like Slater was dumped defies belief.

From a personnel PoV, there's not much wrong with that front row, but they just look so confused... Many taking his eyes off the ball and dropping it was a pure symptom...

Poor Ford was hitting the runners only to see them fail to drive through or drop the ball, there was no-one there securing the breakdown, so the Saints br had a field day...

Tigers just look like a really badly coached team.

Puja wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:Up front is a huge issues. The only Tiger’s forward I’d want as Northampton would be Genge. The rest are all sub the Saints incumbents and most frankly sub premiership standard.

Youngs, Cole, Spencer, and Thompson are hardly bad players to work with. And I'm willing to bet that both Kitchener and Williams will look much more competent when in their new homes next season. We have more quality than our performances would suggest - we're just making the absolute least out of them.

Puja

None of them is serious top class. Cole arguably the best of the. bunch but he’s not the player he was. The Youngs and Spencer are average prem players and Thompson is good, but no more than good.

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:
Youngs, Cole, Spencer, and Thompson are hardly bad players to work with. And I'm willing to bet that both Kitchener and Williams will look much more competent when in their new homes next season. We have more quality than our performances would suggest - we're just making the absolute least out of them.

Puja

Those first four might be adequate squad players in/out of the 23 and not letting the side down - IF the other 9 forwards were top quality in the Leicester tradition. How the hell a guy like Slater was dumped defies belief.

From a personnel PoV, there's not much wrong with that front row, but they just look so confused... Many taking his eyes off the ball and dropping it was a pure symptom...

Poor Ford was hitting the runners only to see them fail to drive through or drop the ball, there was no-one there securing the breakdown, so the Saints br had a field day...

Tigers just look like a really badly coached team.

Totally agree with the last line. I would add that our quality is bottom 6 standard. Look at our pack and how many would start for any other team? Almost nobody barring Genge would walk in.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Those first four might be adequate squad players in/out of the 23 and not letting the side down - IF the other 9 forwards were top quality in the Leicester tradition. How the hell a guy like Slater was dumped defies belief.

From a personnel PoV, there's not much wrong with that front row, but they just look so confused... Many taking his eyes off the ball and dropping it was a pure symptom...

Poor Ford was hitting the runners only to see them fail to drive through or drop the ball, there was no-one there securing the breakdown, so the Saints br had a field day...

Tigers just look like a really badly coached team.

Totally agree with the last line. I would add that our quality is bottom 6 standard. Look at our pack and how many would start for any other team? Almost nobody barring Genge would walk in.

Was going to reply to the other post but this also fits...

If Youngs, Cole, Spencer and Thompson were surrounded by Etzebeth, Wilson and Underhill, it would be a very good pack.

But instead they have Kitchener, O'connor and Williams.

I’d say it’s probably more of a mid-table standard pack, but I don’t actually think the issue is ability, I think it’s application/coaching.

As Puja said earlier, Kitchener and Williams will probably look fairly good again playing for other sides.

If you compare the first choice packs from the bottom three, arguably Tigers have the best on paper, it’s just not the same on the field ...

And it’s not just the forwards. Comparing the two sets of backs from last night, on paper most people would pick Tigers’ every day of the week (with the exception of Reinach), but Ford and Olowafela were the only backs to come out of it with any real credit on the Tigers side. Francis, Hutchinson and Collins easily outplayed Eastmond/Toomua, Tuilagi and May IMO.

Tigers were pretty dreadful, but thats been their default position all season. They are now in 10th place with more pts (480) conceded than any other side. They look rudderless. Ford did his best but he cannot carry a whole team. And yes the forwards need to find a way out of neutral.
Credit to Saints, though. They attacked with great style and defended doggedly when required. Some of their fringe players have really stepped up. All the key 1 v 1 battles they won hands down.

Reinach was brilliant, just to add to all the above. I totally agree that the raw material up front for Tigers is hardly top notch, but they are so much less than the sum of their parts, and its a quality backline in theory outside Harrison.

Banquo wrote:Reinach was brilliant, just to add to all the above. I totally agree that the raw material up front for Tigers is hardly top notch, but they are so much less than the sum of their parts, and its a quality backline in theory outside Harrison.

They could be, and have on occasions been, competitive up front, but apart from a tight scrum they’ve been woeful in most facets all season. That’s a mix of ability and direction / structure which comes down to coaching and also the experience of the players which should be able to compensate to a certain extent.

The breakdown is a great example of both failings where we place and secure our ball poorly, allow the opposition to compete too readily, dither at halfback and then deliver a mix between good, adequate and shit. The greatest backs in the world will struggle behind shit speed and delivery of ball.

So to surmise we have, with the extremely odd exception, barely standard players up front and sparkles of class behind, who seem to be coached into total disarray in just about every possible facet of the game.

And yes Reinach was superb. Especially in bossing his pack.

Harrison on the other hand was utter dross, even with the caveat of being behind our pack.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Banquo wrote:Reinach was brilliant, just to add to all the above. I totally agree that the raw material up front for Tigers is hardly top notch, but they are so much less than the sum of their parts, and its a quality backline in theory outside Harrison.

They could be, and have on occasions been, competitive up front, but apart from a tight scrum they’ve been woeful in most facets all season. That’s a mix of ability and direction / structure which comes down to coaching and also the experience of the players which should be able to compensate to a certain extent.

The breakdown is a great example of both failings where we place and secure our ball poorly, allow the opposition to compete too readily, dither at halfback and then deliver a mix between good, adequate and shit. The greatest backs in the world will struggle behind shit speed and delivery of ball.

So to surmise we have, with the extremely odd exception, barely standard players up front and sparkles of class behind, who seem to be coached into total disarray in just about every possible facet of the game.

And yes Reinach was superb. Especially in bossing his pack.

Harrison on the other hand was utter dross, even with the caveat of being behind our pack.

So in short we agree .

Banquo wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Banquo wrote:Reinach was brilliant, just to add to all the above. I totally agree that the raw material up front for Tigers is hardly top notch, but they are so much less than the sum of their parts, and its a quality backline in theory outside Harrison.

They could be, and have on occasions been, competitive up front, but apart from a tight scrum they’ve been woeful in most facets all season. That’s a mix of ability and direction / structure which comes down to coaching and also the experience of the players which should be able to compensate to a certain extent.

The breakdown is a great example of both failings where we place and secure our ball poorly, allow the opposition to compete too readily, dither at halfback and then deliver a mix between good, adequate and shit. The greatest backs in the world will struggle behind shit speed and delivery of ball.

So to surmise we have, with the extremely odd exception, barely standard players up front and sparkles of class behind, who seem to be coached into total disarray in just about every possible facet of the game.

And yes Reinach was superb. Especially in bossing his pack.

Harrison on the other hand was utter dross, even with the caveat of being behind our pack.

So in short we agree .

You are and we do

Stom wrote:
Poor Ford was hitting the runners only to see them fail to drive through or drop the ball, there was no-one there securing the breakdown, so the Saints br had a field day...

The times he had runners were the better phases, dropped passes or otherwise. A lot of the time he had no options whatsoever. Such a surprise from a team with Geordan Murphy as top man.