RugbyRebels

Just on two of the points made.

Chances - NZ are a long way ahead but will be in a bit of transition. I think there is definitely the talent in the lions nations to be competitive.

Coach - I dont really like it to be a current 6N coach either. Agree there are a lack of options though. I presume someone like Wayne Smith (or mcgeechan or a less experienced figurehead) leading a team of the assistants would be out of the question? I dont want Cotter going though as I wonder how long we'll have him anyway

Wayne Smith has signed an extension with the NZRU.

The only current 6N coach with the ability to beat the All Blacks with a team of, man-for-man, lesser players is Eddie Jones.

Serious Q - is there any potential Lions starting XV player who you would not swap for the All Blacks' opposite number? Hard to answer when NZs new mid-field is not yet really known but what are your thoughts?

It's very hard to think of anyone, but it's hard to really be objective about it either. The overall quality is so much higher that I think certain players of yours have a far easier time of it. There are Lions players that I have no doubt could look world class doing a job in the ABs side.

Short answer, no.

If we swapped Aaron Smith for Ben Youngs I think we'd be in with a shout.

A. Smith is class. Probably the first time in my memory that we could reasonably claim to have the world's best scrum half.

Lizard wrote: Serious Q - is there any potential Lions starting XV player who you would not swap for the All Blacks' opposite number? Hard to answer when NZs new mid-field is not yet really known but what are your thoughts?

Prop is probably the position at the moment where if someone really wanted to could maybe present a case. It could be one of those where IMO neither side may want to swap players.

There is no doubt NZ are stronger, and will likely get stronger but there is a potential for a youngish team from the Lions that would be potentially fun and exciting to watch. And of course there is the injury fairy to worry about.

The immediate aftermath of a RWC always leaves teams rebuilding and there are several young B+I players still relatively new to international rugby <20caps or <24years old who will gain another 10-12 or so caps before the Lions tour so I am hopeful that even if the Lions get horsed it will be a team worth watching.

Lizard wrote:A. Smith is class. Probably the first time in my memory that we could reasonably claim to have the world's best scrum half.

I wouldn't even say it's a reasonable claim. He is clearly the best in the world.

Going back to Scotland and the Lions, I expect we'll win 1 game in the 6n and Glasgow wont make the KO stages of the ERC and we'll have 3 Lions.

Mikey Brown wrote:It's very hard to think of anyone, but it's hard to really be objective about it either. The overall quality is so much higher that I think certain players of yours have a far easier time of it. There are Lions players that I have no doubt could look world class doing a job in the ABs side.

Short answer, no.

If we swapped Aaron Smith for Ben Youngs I think we'd be in with a shout.

In a non Lions related sense I will be interested how your back row moves towards 2017 and beyond. Kaino can't be far away from calling it a day for NZ (waiting for Lions?), Read has a long history IIRC of concussion and like Sexton it might be questioned how many more they can sustain, and as many 7s as you have I don't think anyone has nailed down the 7 shirt with great performances (although they haven't had a chance yet).

Big D wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:It's very hard to think of anyone, but it's hard to really be objective about it either. The overall quality is so much higher that I think certain players of yours have a far easier time of it. There are Lions players that I have no doubt could look world class doing a job in the ABs side.

Short answer, no.

If we swapped Aaron Smith for Ben Youngs I think we'd be in with a shout.

In a non Lions related sense I will be interested how your back row moves towards 2017 and beyond. Kaino can't be far away from calling it a day for NZ (waiting for Lions?), Read has a long history IIRC of concussion and like Sexton it might be questioned how many more they can sustain, and as many 7s as you have I don't think anyone has nailed down the 7 shirt with great performances (although they haven't had a chance yet).

Yes, it's interesting times here. Read is the anointed Captain-In-Waiting but does have head problems as you say. Sam Cane is pretty class at 7 but will suffer in comparison I'm sure. I'm confident that the NZ open side production line will keep turning them out (Jones, Kronfeld, McCaw...). Kaino is actually an invincible immortal.

Front row is where I have concerns. We also need to rapidly nail down a midfield combo. The Nonu/Smith thing actually went on a bit long in terms of keeping the players coming through. I'm worried that it might be a bit like hooker post-Fitzpatrick.

Big D wrote:

Lizard wrote: Serious Q - is there any potential Lions starting XV player who you would not swap for the All Blacks' opposite number? Hard to answer when NZs new mid-field is not yet really known but what are your thoughts?

Prop is probably the position at the moment where if someone really wanted to could maybe present a case. It could be one of those where IMO neither side may want to swap players.

There is no doubt NZ are stronger, and will likely get stronger but there is a potential for a youngish team from the Lions that would be potentially fun and exciting to watch. And of course there is the injury fairy to worry about.

The immediate aftermath of a RWC always leaves teams rebuilding and there are several young B+I players still relatively new to international rugby <20caps or <24years old who will gain another 10-12 or so caps before the Lions tour so I am hopeful that even if the Lions get horsed it will be a team worth watching.

Yeah prop buit you're exactly right that our props probably don't have the mobility or passing to play the game the ABs would require of them and their props aren't the anchors we tend to require ours to be.

Big D wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:It's very hard to think of anyone, but it's hard to really be objective about it either. The overall quality is so much higher that I think certain players of yours have a far easier time of it. There are Lions players that I have no doubt could look world class doing a job in the ABs side.

Short answer, no.

If we swapped Aaron Smith for Ben Youngs I think we'd be in with a shout.

In a non Lions related sense I will be interested how your back row moves towards 2017 and beyond. Kaino can't be far away from calling it a day for NZ (waiting for Lions?), Read has a long history IIRC of concussion and like Sexton it might be questioned how many more they can sustain, and as many 7s as you have I don't think anyone has nailed down the 7 shirt with great performances (although they haven't had a chance yet).

Richie McCaw also had a long history of concussions.

The ABs are grand at 7 (Cane and Savea) should be ok at 6 (Kaino, Luatua, Shields) and Read is bound to continue happily enough at 8. Add in Akiar Ioane to create havoc after the Olympics and we'll be worrying about them rather than the other way round.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Big D wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:It's very hard to think of anyone, but it's hard to really be objective about it either. The overall quality is so much higher that I think certain players of yours have a far easier time of it. There are Lions players that I have no doubt could look world class doing a job in the ABs side.

Short answer, no.

If we swapped Aaron Smith for Ben Youngs I think we'd be in with a shout.

In a non Lions related sense I will be interested how your back row moves towards 2017 and beyond. Kaino can't be far away from calling it a day for NZ (waiting for Lions?), Read has a long history IIRC of concussion and like Sexton it might be questioned how many more they can sustain, and as many 7s as you have I don't think anyone has nailed down the 7 shirt with great performances (although they haven't had a chance yet).

Richie McCaw also had a long history of concussions.

The ABs are grand at 7 (Cane and Savea) should be ok at 6 (Kaino, Luatua, Shields) and Read is bound to continue happily enough at 8. Add in Akiar Ioane to create havoc after the Olympics and we'll be worrying about them rather than the other way round.

I wasn't talking about them worrying about us. I was merely stating an interest in the make up of their back row and how it will develop into the future.

Read is 30 and Kaino is 32 IIRC so there needs to be succession planning and all their good 7s are competing for that spot. It is bound to be interesting as to how the back row looks like in the next 4N compared to the following year and 2019.

2017 was mentioned only as I would imagine Kaino will hang around for that hence the "in a non lions related sense".

whatisthejava wrote:Keith woo d picking his team tomorrow.
Who makes yours. Bloody hard

1 much a muchness, no stand out
2 best but no stand out who isn't a kunt
3 nel
4 kruis
5 J gray - AWJ older than the hills
6 itoje
7 Hardie
8 vanipolo
9 youngs
10 bigger
11 watson
12 Roberts
13 no one has stood out ,
14 nowell
15 Hogg


Hard this year,

No stander, R gray, sexton, Murray,

It is tricky...

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. Toolis
5.
6. Hardie
7. Cowan
8. Strauss
9. Boss
10. Anscombe
11. Maitland
12. Payne
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15.

Lizard wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Keith woo d picking his team tomorrow.
Who makes yours. Bloody hard

1 much a muchness, no stand out
2 best but no stand out who isn't a kunt
3 nel
4 kruis
5 J gray - AWJ older than the hills
6 itoje
7 Hardie
8 vanipolo
9 youngs
10 bigger
11 watson
12 Roberts
13 no one has stood out ,
14 nowell
15 Hogg


Hard this year,

No stander, R gray, sexton, Murray,

It is tricky...

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. Toolis
5.
6. Hardie
7. Cowan
8. Strauss
9. Boss
10. Anscombe
11. Maitland
12. Payne
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15.

Even within your, ahem, restrictions, you could do better.

Stander to 6, Hardie across to 7.
Payne to full back, Ben Te'o to 13, move barritt in 1.
I guess you could either drag Nathan Hines out of retirement, or isn't there another Toolis for lock?

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Lizard wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Keith woo d picking his team tomorrow.
Who makes yours. Bloody hard

1 much a muchness, no stand out
2 best but no stand out who isn't a kunt
3 nel
4 kruis
5 J gray - AWJ older than the hills
6 itoje
7 Hardie
8 vanipolo
9 youngs
10 bigger
11 watson
12 Roberts
13 no one has stood out ,
14 nowell
15 Hogg


Hard this year,

No stander, R gray, sexton, Murray,

It is tricky...

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. Toolis
5.
6. Hardie
7. Cowan
8. Strauss
9. Boss
10. Anscombe
11. Maitland
12. Payne
13. Barritt
14. Rokoduguni
15.

Even within your, ahem, restrictions, you could do better.

Stander to 6, Hardie across to 7.
Payne to full back, Ben Te'o to 13, move barritt in 1.
I guess you could either drag Nathan Hines out of retirement, or isn't there another Toolis for lock?

Aye, twins.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
Even within your, ahem, restrictions, you could do better.

Stander to 6, Hardie across to 7.
Payne to full back, Ben Te'o to 13, move barritt in 1.
I guess you could either drag Nathan Hines out of retirement, or isn't there another Toolis for lock?

1. Vunipola
2. Hartley
3. Nel
4. B. Toolis
5. A. Toolis
6. Stander
7. Hardie
8. Strauss
9. Boss
10. Anscombe
11. Maitland
12. Barritt
13. Te'o
14. Rokoduguni
15. Payne

I saw Standers was, ahem, eligible but don't know much about him. Figuring out to best use the utility of Payne and Anscombe given the relative paucity of inside backs was also a challenge. I was trying to limit myself to current test players (OK, Boss is borderline) but if Te'o and Toolis II are likely to make the grade then let's put them in. To be honest, I wasn't expecting to get anywhere near a full XV when I started the exercise.

This team isn't too bad, actually. They would probably suffer in the last 20 minutes as the bench would need to consist almost entirely of front rowers and loose forwards.

I think Boss is beyond borderline and Barritt will likely never play for England again.

Some decent performances last weekend.

The real question is who will the coach be? Very underwhelming choices and Eddie has ruled himself out.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:The real question is who will the coach be? Very underwhelming choices and Eddie has ruled himself out.

I think it will need to be someone with Lions experience within the set up. Toony as backs coach maybe? Reason I say that is I can see a starting XV with little Lions experience.

I know others will hate this idea, but I wouldn't be totally against VC doing it after the AIs. Let Toony temporarily take over Scotland and Kenny Murray get HC experience at Glasgow during the 6N window. Would perhaps give a window into the future.

Captain is another interesting shout. The obvious candidates would be Warburton and AWJ but neither of those should be close to guaranteed their spots. As much as I shudder to say it - I think Hartley looks like a leading candidate for now.

Big D wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:The real question is who will the coach be? Very underwhelming choices and Eddie has ruled himself out.

I think it will need to be someone with Lions experience within the set up. Toony as backs coach maybe? Reason I say that is I can see a starting XV with little Lions experience.

I know others will hate this idea, but I wouldn't be totally against VC doing it after the AIs. Let Toony temporarily take over Scotland and Kenny Murray get HC experience at Glasgow during the 6N window. Would perhaps give a window into the future.

Captain is another interesting shout. The obvious candidates would be Warburton and AWJ but neither of those should be close to guaranteed their spots. As much as I shudder to say it - I think Hartley looks like a leading candidate for now.

You rang?

It's a bloody stupid suggestion mate. For all parties involved.

Coach is a real problem. If it's Gatland it will be a disaster. There should be a much more even spread of players so his tactic of picking Wales plus a couple of upgrades won't work. We'll also need to use the ball.

I'd like a completely fresh set of eyes who also believes in running rugby and doesn't respect the ABs too much. Galthie is the only coach I can think of who's not otherwise engaged who fits the bill.

hp18 wrote:

Big D wrote:

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:The real question is who will the coach be? Very underwhelming choices and Eddie has ruled himself out.

I think it will need to be someone with Lions experience within the set up. Toony as backs coach maybe? Reason I say that is I can see a starting XV with little Lions experience.

I know others will hate this idea, but I wouldn't be totally against VC doing it after the AIs. Let Toony temporarily take over Scotland and Kenny Murray get HC experience at Glasgow during the 6N window. Would perhaps give a window into the future.

Captain is another interesting shout. The obvious candidates would be Warburton and AWJ but neither of those should be close to guaranteed their spots. As much as I shudder to say it - I think Hartley looks like a leading candidate for now.

You rang?

It's a bloody stupid suggestion mate. For all parties involved.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Coach is a real problem. If it's Gatland it will be a disaster. There should be a much more even spread of players so his tactic of picking Wales plus a couple of upgrades won't work. We'll also need to use the ball.

I'd like a completely fresh set of eyes who also believes in running rugby and doesn't respect the ABs too much. Galthie is the only coach I can think of who's not otherwise engaged who fits the bill.

It'll be Gatland.

hp18 wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:Coach is a real problem. If it's Gatland it will be a disaster. There should be a much more even spread of players so his tactic of picking Wales plus a couple of upgrades won't work. We'll also need to use the ball.

I'd like a completely fresh set of eyes who also believes in running rugby and doesn't respect the ABs too much. Galthie is the only coach I can think of who's not otherwise engaged who fits the bill.

It'll be Gatland.

Oh I know. The Lions chief has been doing everything short of publicly fellating him.