RugbyRebels

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Is it coincidence that Ford looks so good when Youngs is missing?

Ford has been excellent all season.

After watching today's games, I'd like to see England try a midfield of Ford(10) Slade (12) and Joseph (13). Slade may need a bit of time to bed in at 12, but he's a good enough footballer to do it, and has added a bit of physicality this season.

I’d like to see that too, but for whatever reason, Slade has never looked comfortable at 12 and now he is looking the business at 13, I think he and JJ are an either/or rather than a 12/13 combo.

Devoto and Slade are starting to look like a good partnership so if the former can stay fit, they could be an interesting pairing for England.

Whether Ford will ever be preferred to Farrell is a separate question entirely ... I think we can safely say ‘not while Eddie’s in charge’.

Great to see him taking on the line rather than the default kick it like it’s the last tackle in league approach. I’d prefer you keep him out of the international team, if it’s all the same to you.

fivepointer wrote:No comeback for Tigers but there were signs of life, mostly prompted by Ford who was first rate. A few in the front 5 were just fine, but that back row is simply inadequate.
Exe looked a few classes above. Their attacking game was outstanding at times. Slade was majestic. He is now putting together consistently impressive performances.
The Youngs red was fair enough, I reckon.

Agreed with all of that. Against most of the other sides in the league, our first half would've been good enough for a healthy lead, but Exeter were just a class above and knocked the stuffing out of us second half (aided by the double-blow of the try being ruled out and going down to 14).

Hope for the future, especially with Ford playing like that, but that back row is simply unacceptable.

Puja

Spiffy wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Is it coincidence that Ford looks so good when Youngs is missing?

Ford has been excellent all season.

After watching today's games, I'd like to see England try a midfield of Ford(10) Slade (12) and Joseph (13). Slade may need a bit of time to bed in at 12, but he's a good enough footballer to do it, and has added a bit of physicality this season.

Welcome to the club.
We have t-shirts!

Really didn't get team selection v game plan.

Game plan was clearly to go all out attack and hope for the best.
But the back row selection was heavy, slow and crap.

TBH against a lesser team I reckon we would've scored 5 or so tries we found a lot of space against a very well disciplined chiefs team.
Also our discipline is shocking, no need to give away that penalty after our first try, no need for Youngs to do what he did.

Just seen the Youngs red card, ridiculous. There are at least 5 of those every grassroots game across the country. We can't get to the point where things are purely just punished because they can be repeated a million times. A red card should be clear and obvious with malice, force and outcome, not just following an ambiguous set of guidelines.

Full force against the back of a player’s head, putting the entirety of Youngs’s weight on Atkin’s neck? He wasn’t even really in the ruck, in order to be cleared out, let alone contesting. Youngs wasn’t helping clear the ball, using his arms, or staying on his feet, in addition to all that.

I agree the lack of consistency has lead to a point where players are doing this shit and hoping to get away with it. But it’s the incidents like this that don’t get called which are nonsense, not this one. 100% that is a red card.

Youngs's red card has overshadowed the earlier fracas started when May deliberately ground his elbow into Kvesic's face when he was on the ground defenceless. Kvesic reacted subsequently and Tuilagi smashed the ball into his face. IMO, all three should have got a yellow and the ref blew a chance to impose discipline. That a red card followed later in the game should have surprised nobody.

Mikey Brown wrote:Full force against the back of a player’s head, putting the entirety of Youngs’s weight on Atkin’s neck? He wasn’t even really in the ruck, in order to be cleared out, let alone contesting. Youngs wasn’t helping clear the ball, using his arms, or staying on his feet, in addition to all that.

I agree the lack of consistency has lead to a point where players are doing this shit and hoping to get away with it. But it’s the incidents like this that don’t get called which are nonsense, not this one. 100% that is a red card.

Agree with this. Hope officials take this far more seriously. Guys diving in to whack someone when the ball is won is something that needs to be picked up far more.

Oakboy wrote:Youngs's red card has overshadowed the earlier fracas started when May deliberately ground his elbow into Kvesic's face when he was on the ground defenceless. Kvesic reacted subsequently and Tuilagi smashed the ball into his face. IMO, all three should have got a yellow and the ref blew a chance to impose discipline. That a red card followed later in the game should have surprised nobody.

Erm......it wasn’t Kvesic on the ground. It was White, who continued to hold onto May after he scored and then some. Kvesic came in afterwards. Then Tuilagi threw the ball in his face etc.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Youngs's red card has overshadowed the earlier fracas started when May deliberately ground his elbow into Kvesic's face when he was on the ground defenceless. Kvesic reacted subsequently and Tuilagi smashed the ball into his face. IMO, all three should have got a yellow and the ref blew a chance to impose discipline. That a red card followed later in the game should have surprised nobody.

Erm......it wasn’t Kvesic on the ground. It was White, who continued to hold onto May after he scored and then some. Kvesic came in afterwards. Then Tuilagi threw the ball in his face etc.

I could sympathise with that. There is an insane amount of wiggle room, both literally and in the laws, over placing the ball down to score when a tackler could potentially hold up the try. As a tackler who may not know whether the ball has been put down or not, when do you release the player and potentially let them score?

I don’t really know why May was so aghast at this. He definitely got away with a forearm in the face/throat. Tuilagi was really dim too, which is less of a surprise.

Scrumhead wrote:Yeah - he was. TBH it looked like he deliberately put his forearm across White’s throat.

After that Kvesic comes in and May goes from aggro to serious aggro in reaction to something Kvesic says ...

This is what I wrote watching the match in real time.

It’s a weird one because I’ve never seen May react that way. He’ll stand up for himself, but he was definitely more the aggressor on this occasion.

Maybe Kvesic didn’t need to get involved, but if I saw one of my teammates being choked, I wouldn’t just stand by waiting for someone else to stop it.

I agree with Oakboy that all three could and maybe should have seen yellow.

I don't think red cards have to be about intent or maliciousness (see tipping people in the air by accident). It's about making people change their actions to protect players. I accept youngs was slightly unlucky but it was a legit red.

All the stuff following may's try was just handbags in my opinion. If it had carried on through out the match then you could penalise them but they just shook hands and got on with it. It wasn't a bad tempered game really at all really.

Scrumhead wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:Yeah - he was. TBH it looked like he deliberately put his forearm across White’s throat.

After that Kvesic comes in and May goes from aggro to serious aggro in reaction to something Kvesic says ...

This is what I wrote watching the match in real time.

It’s a weird one because I’ve never seen May react that way. He’ll stand up for himself, but he was definitely more the aggressor on this occasion.

Maybe Kvesic didn’t need to get involved, but if I saw one of my teammates being choked, I wouldn’t just stand by waiting for someone else to stop it.

I agree with Oakboy that all three could and maybe should have seen yellow.

as I said, likely goes back to when they were team-mates at Glaws.

twitchy wrote:I don't think red cards have to be about intent or maliciousness (see tipping people in the air by accident). It's about making people change their actions to protect players. I accept youngs was slightly unlucky but it was a legit red.

All the stuff following may's try was just handbags in my opinion. If it had carried on through out the match then you could penalise them but they just shook hands and got on with it. It wasn't a bad tempered game really at all really.

This, and the red card entirely unrelated imo.

There needs to be a complete review of nefarious activities at rucks/multiple people pile ups; I really think the laws on binding need to be applied and players staying on their feet into the contact area. Difficult to ref, but someone will get a broken neck in a (high profile) game at some point.

Part of me wants the physical confrontation/flare-up fun to always be a part of the game, thinking it cannot ever be antiseptic lovey-dovey stuff.

The other part wants a continued clean-up with a professionally applied level of strictness - in the interest of player safety, youth-development and family-spectator attractiveness.

Striking a balance is the hard bit.

In a way, it’s slightly ironic that Exeter were the victims in this case as I’d argue they’re among the worst culprits for players diving in wildly.

Any context on the May/Kvesic history? Obviously I know they played together at Gloucester. I just wasn’t aware of any ongoing animosity between them.

Scrumhead wrote:In a way, it’s slightly ironic that Exeter were the victims in this case as I’d argue they’re among the worst culprits for players diving in wildly.

Any context on the May/Kvesic history? Obviously I know they played together at Gloucester. I just wasn’t aware of any ongoing animosity between them.

Just a theory, but I know JM was seen as a bit of a 'space cadet' in his early years. Previous would help explain the reaction from both of them,

Oakboy wrote:Part of me wants the physical confrontation/flare-up fun to always be a part of the game, thinking it cannot ever be antiseptic lovey-dovey stuff.

The other part wants a continued clean-up with a professionally applied level of strictness - in the interest of player safety, youth-development and family-spectator attractiveness.

Striking a balance is the hard bit.

I'm all for turning the cameras off and a bit of skullduggery/wind up . But not the 'turn a blind eye' violence habitual at the breakdown; they are red hot on the odd seat-belt tackle, less so the launch like an exocet in a clearout, and I know which is worse.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Youngs's red card has overshadowed the earlier fracas started when May deliberately ground his elbow into Kvesic's face when he was on the ground defenceless. Kvesic reacted subsequently and Tuilagi smashed the ball into his face. IMO, all three should have got a yellow and the ref blew a chance to impose discipline. That a red card followed later in the game should have surprised nobody.

Erm......it wasn’t Kvesic on the ground. It was White, who continued to hold onto May after he scored and then some. Kvesic came in afterwards. Then Tuilagi threw the ball in his face etc.

I could sympathise with that. There is an insane amount of wiggle room, both literally and in the laws, over placing the ball down to score when a tackler could potentially hold up the try. As a tackler who may not know whether the ball has been put down or not, when do you release the player and potentially let them score?

I don’t really know why May was so aghast at this. He definitely got away with a forearm in the face/throat. Tuilagi was really dim too, which is less of a surprise.

White holds on way beyond that when May is trying to stand up, then there is much ado about nothing with May putting his arm across his jaw. It is kind of done and then Kvesic comes in for no reason really and inflames it. Then May reacts and Manu. Right result from the ref. Unnecessary from all involved.

Just watched the highlights and the Leicester defense and, specifically, their tackling was just awful. Really bad, missing simple tackles, or falling off when they really shouldn't be..

If they're to pick up more points, they need to fix that. And if they can fix it even slightly, they will pick up points because of the brilliance of Ford and the pace of May.