RugbyRebels

Mail currently reporting that: 'Sarries were told they either had to hand back their titles won in the three years they have been proven to have broken the cap, and let auditors fully investigate club finances, or face the drop to the Championship in June.'

And apparently Sarries have tried to offload players, but as they've pissed off agents (by previously cutting them out) and the other clubs (and the fact they re mostly up to cap), no-one is playing ball

There is nothing in PRL regs/bylaws that allow for titles to be rescinded. That’s been repeated by numerous sources. From what I’ve read, they have given auditors carte blanche with their books.

The Times believes (story from a few weeks ago) that Lord Dyson and friends could’ve levied a 70pts deduction but fell on 35pts due to various reasons. I do wonder if those 35pts will be added should they fail to stay under the cap this season. I imagine that is what is meant by automatic relegation as from what I’ve read, and iirc, a simple sentence of relegation isn’t an allowable punishment for a salary cap breach. Of course, if the points deduction is so severe relegation is a foregone conclusion, that’s a different matter.

Banquo wrote:Even that three year old data shows you the enormous debt they have, and doesn’t show their cash flow, which I’d suspect is underwritten by Wray. There has to be a big risk of disappearing.

I was under the impression that Wray had written off that debt - but stand to be corrected there.

Mellsblue wrote:There is nothing in PRL regs/bylaws that allow for titles to be rescinded. That’s been repeated by numerous sources. From what I’ve read, they have given auditors carte blanche with their books.

The Times believes (story from a few weeks ago) that Lord Dyson and friends could’ve levied a 70pts deduction but fell on 35pts due to various reasons. I do wonder if those 35pts will be added should they fail to stay under the cap this season. I imagine that is what is meant by automatic relegation as from what I’ve read, and iirc, a simple sentence of relegation isn’t an allowable punishment for a salary cap breach. Of course, if the points deduction is so severe relegation is a foregone conclusion, that’s a different matter.

This from Will Kelleher - "Further update - #Saracens players are understood to have been told at a meeting this morning that the club WILL be automatically relegated from the Premiership at the end of this season.

An additional 35pt sanction, so they would move to -42 and be sure to go down"

Does look like the 35pt reduction on the initial penalty was contingent on Saracens making reductions in the wage bill. Seems they haven't despite telling everyone back in November that the club were operating within the guidelines.

What a sorry mess this is.

PRL dont look good, allowing this nonsense to go on over at least 3 seasons. There is no transparency in the decision making as we are still denied the chance to look at the full ruling and the club have acted badly in initially trying to claim there was an admin error, and then by declaring all was right after getting the 35 pt penalty.

Mellsblue wrote:There is nothing in PRL regs/bylaws that allow for titles to be rescinded. That’s been repeated by numerous sources. From what I’ve read, they have given auditors carte blanche with their books.

The Times believes (story from a few weeks ago) that Lord Dyson and friends could’ve levied a 70pts deduction but fell on 35pts due to various reasons. I do wonder if those 35pts will be added should they fail to stay under the cap this season. I imagine that is what is meant by automatic relegation as from what I’ve read, and iirc, a simple sentence of relegation isn’t an allowable punishment for a salary cap breach. Of course, if the points deduction is so severe relegation is a foregone conclusion, that’s a different matter.

I've seen reporting that says they won't open their books - hence the move to escalate punishment

fivepointer wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:There is nothing in PRL regs/bylaws that allow for titles to be rescinded. That’s been repeated by numerous sources. From what I’ve read, they have given auditors carte blanche with their books.

The Times believes (story from a few weeks ago) that Lord Dyson and friends could’ve levied a 70pts deduction but fell on 35pts due to various reasons. I do wonder if those 35pts will be added should they fail to stay under the cap this season. I imagine that is what is meant by automatic relegation as from what I’ve read, and iirc, a simple sentence of relegation isn’t an allowable punishment for a salary cap breach. Of course, if the points deduction is so severe relegation is a foregone conclusion, that’s a different matter.

This from Will Kelleher - "Further update - #Saracens players are understood to have been told at a meeting this morning that the club WILL be automatically relegated from the Premiership at the end of this season.

An additional 35pt sanction, so they would move to -42 and be sure to go down"

Does look like the 35pt reduction on the initial penalty was contingent on Saracens making reductions in the wage bill. Seems they haven't despite telling everyone back in November that the club were operating within the guidelines.

What a sorry mess this is.

PRL dont look good, allowing this nonsense to go on over at least 3 seasons. There is no transparency in the decision making as we are still denied the chance to look at the full ruling and the club have acted badly in initially trying to claim there was an admin error, and then by declaring all was right after getting the 35 pt penalty.

Either Kelleher (who is he?) is stealing my BS or I am living proof that the phrase ‘if you give a monkey a typewriter he’ll eventually produce the works of Shakespeare’ is spot on. Apologies to all monkeys for the comparison.

It is a sorry mess. An absolute farce from whichever angle or perspective you look at it.

Good, Sarries can focus on the heineken cup.

Hopefully pro rugby in england gets a bit closer to being sorted out.

Mr Mwenda wrote:Good, Sarries can focus on the heineken cup.

Hopefully pro rugby in england gets a bit closer to being sorted out.

Yeh. Can see them now just ignoring the league and focusing on Europe.
If they win do they qualify for next season’s comp? They could then do the same next season. Could work out in their favour in the long run!!
1.5 seasons being like Leinster and getting to play at Goldington Rd. Living the rugby dream!

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:Even that three year old data shows you the enormous debt they have, and doesn’t show their cash flow, which I’d suspect is underwritten by Wray. There has to be a big risk of disappearing.

I was under the impression that Wray had written off that debt - but stand to be corrected there.

without knowing what the debt comprises its tricky to know- Wray wrote off some loans, but I’d be amazed if they had no real debt that needed servicing, let alone excess of expenditure over income day to day.

Someone mentioned ‘sorting out pro rugby once and for all’- I wonder what that means, and what sorted out pro rugby in England looks like.

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:Even that three year old data shows you the enormous debt they have, and doesn’t show their cash flow, which I’d suspect is underwritten by Wray. There has to be a big risk of disappearing.

I was under the impression that Wray had written off that debt - but stand to be corrected there.

without knowing what the debt comprises its tricky to know- Wray wrote off some loans, but I’d be amazed if they had no real debt that needed servicing, let alone excess of expenditure over income day to day.

Someone mentioned ‘sorting out pro rugby once and for all’- I wonder what that means, and what sorted out pro rugby in England looks like.

The Saffer wrote off his debt. No idea on Wray. From what I know, even with no debt they’re not a going concern at anywhere near the status quo.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

fivepointer wrote:It's hard to feel ANY sympathy for them at all.

It looks both intentional and moronic.

This is pretty much my view. As is often the way with the very rich, I imagine that Wray will still be convinced that he was in the right and that if he's not allowed to play by his terms then he's taking his ball (quietly stuffed full of £50 notes) away and not playing any more... Without that backing sarries will dissappear I reckon

Mellsblue wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:Good, Sarries can focus on the heineken cup.

Hopefully pro rugby in england gets a bit closer to being sorted out.

Yeh. Can see them now just ignoring the league and focusing on Europe.
If they win do they qualify for next season’s comp? They could then do the same next season. Could work out in their favour in the long run!!
1.5 seasons being like Leinster and getting to play at Goldington Rd. Living the rugby dream!

Not open to teams outside the top leagues other than the two invitational teams from emerging nations

Croft_No.5 wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Mr Mwenda wrote:Good, Sarries can focus on the heineken cup.

Hopefully pro rugby in england gets a bit closer to being sorted out.

Yeh. Can see them now just ignoring the league and focusing on Europe.
If they win do they qualify for next season’s comp? They could then do the same next season. Could work out in their favour in the long run!!
1.5 seasons being like Leinster and getting to play at Goldington Rd. Living the rugby dream!

Not open to teams outside the top leagues other than the two invitational teams from emerging nations

Elitist scum. Can’t be rigorously enforced, though. The Pro14 teams are still allowed to play.

Mellsblue wrote:

Croft_No.5 wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Yeh. Can see them now just ignoring the league and focusing on Europe.
If they win do they qualify for next season’s comp? They could then do the same next season. Could work out in their favour in the long run!!
1.5 seasons being like Leinster and getting to play at Goldington Rd. Living the rugby dream!

Not open to teams outside the top leagues other than the two invitational teams from emerging nations

Elitist scum. Can’t be rigorously enforced, though. The Pro14 teams are still allowed to play.

Ah yes, terrible. I think I recall an "Elite Elite" European comp being promoted a few years ago.

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: I was under the impression that Wray had written off that debt - but stand to be corrected there.

without knowing what the debt comprises its tricky to know- Wray wrote off some loans, but I’d be amazed if they had no real debt that needed servicing, let alone excess of expenditure over income day to day.

Someone mentioned ‘sorting out pro rugby once and for all’- I wonder what that means, and what sorted out pro rugby in England looks like.

The Saffer wrote off his debt. No idea on Wray. From what I know, even with no debt they’re not a going concern at anywhere near the status quo.

Wray converted all debt owed to him into equity and Remgro (?) wrote off all the debt owed to them when they sold the shares back to dodgy Nigel. Except for a small-ish bank loan I think the club is essentially debt free.

Honestly, I would be very surprised if the Wray family withdrew financial support at this moment in time, especially if it means the club going to the dogs. The family are indelibly linked to Saracens and absolutely nothing over the last 25 years makes me think he doesn’t genuinely care. His kids are heavily involved in the day to day workings of the club and are also significant shareholders themselves.

The infrastructure and academy are top class, they have CVC cash and they’re in the process of upgrading their facilities. A season in the Championship, if handled well by Ed Griffiths, the Wray family, McCall etc will give them the time they need to sort their shit out. They’ll be back in the Prem in 18 months with a squad that’ll likely be competing for the Premiership straight away. Imo.

What a cock-up, all round! Who comes out of this debacle with any credit?

As a sad, old fan of the game with no club affiliation apart from a geographical affection for Exeter I'm left wondering whether the RFU/GP relationship buggerance can ever produce what is best for the game in the professional era. (Fucking Jones in charge of our national team, 'bloodgate' and Saracens cheating on a damned artificial pitch! )

Is the salary cap worth a light? Is promotion/relegation worth maintaining? Can this season now produce anything meaningful?

The English game needs to go back and start again.

Oh, one last rant, how may clubs are lining up to sign Farrell?

On the plus side, there’s no salary cap in the Champ so they’re good for next season.

In an attempt to win friends and influence people, the club that a friend coaches at has today been told their mini tournament at Allianz Park prior the match against Sale has been cancelled.

Timbo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote: without knowing what the debt comprises its tricky to know- Wray wrote off some loans, but I’d be amazed if they had no real debt that needed servicing, let alone excess of expenditure over income day to day.

Someone mentioned ‘sorting out pro rugby once and for all’- I wonder what that means, and what sorted out pro rugby in England looks like.

The Saffer wrote off his debt. No idea on Wray. From what I know, even with no debt they’re not a going concern at anywhere near the status quo.

Wray converted all debt owed to him into equity and Remgro (?) wrote off all the debt owed to them when they sold the shares back to dodgy Nigel. Except for a small-ish bank loan I think the club is essentially debt free.

Honestly, I would be very surprised if the Wray family withdrew financial support at this moment in time, especially if it means the club going to the dogs. The family are indelibly linked to Saracens and absolutely nothing over the last 25 years makes me think he doesn’t genuinely care. His kids are heavily involved in the day to day workings of the club and are also significant shareholders themselves.

The infrastructure and academy are top class, they have CVC cash and they’re in the process of upgrading their facilities. A season in the Championship, if handled well by Ed Griffiths, the Wray family, McCall etc will give them the time they need to sort their shit out. They’ll be back in the Prem in 18 months with a squad that’ll likely be competing for the Premiership straight away. Imo.

Ok. Assuming they are really debt free- how was the stadium financed out of interest?

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: The Saffer wrote off his debt. No idea on Wray. From what I know, even with no debt they’re not a going concern at anywhere near the status quo.

Wray converted all debt owed to him into equity and Remgro (?) wrote off all the debt owed to them when they sold the shares back to dodgy Nigel. Except for a small-ish bank loan I think the club is essentially debt free.

Honestly, I would be very surprised if the Wray family withdrew financial support at this moment in time, especially if it means the club going to the dogs. The family are indelibly linked to Saracens and absolutely nothing over the last 25 years makes me think he doesn’t genuinely care. His kids are heavily involved in the day to day workings of the club and are also significant shareholders themselves.

The infrastructure and academy are top class, they have CVC cash and they’re in the process of upgrading their facilities. A season in the Championship, if handled well by Ed Griffiths, the Wray family, McCall etc will give them the time they need to sort their shit out. They’ll be back in the Prem in 18 months with a squad that’ll likely be competing for the Premiership straight away. Imo.

Ok. Assuming they are really debt free- how was the stadium financed out of interest?

The most recent development of one of their stands has been financed through a loan from Barnet council on very favourable terms.

I don’t know all the details, I just know that between Remgro and Nigel the majority of the clubs debt has been written off in the last 18 months.

Timbo wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:
Wray converted all debt owed to him into equity and Remgro (?) wrote off all the debt owed to them when they sold the shares back to dodgy Nigel. Except for a small-ish bank loan I think the club is essentially debt free.

Honestly, I would be very surprised if the Wray family withdrew financial support at this moment in time, especially if it means the club going to the dogs. The family are indelibly linked to Saracens and absolutely nothing over the last 25 years makes me think he doesn’t genuinely care. His kids are heavily involved in the day to day workings of the club and are also significant shareholders themselves.

The infrastructure and academy are top class, they have CVC cash and they’re in the process of upgrading their facilities. A season in the Championship, if handled well by Ed Griffiths, the Wray family, McCall etc will give them the time they need to sort their shit out. They’ll be back in the Prem in 18 months with a squad that’ll likely be competing for the Premiership straight away. Imo.

Ok. Assuming they are really debt free- how was the stadium financed out of interest?

The most recent development of one of their stands has been financed through a loan from Barnet council on very favourable terms.

I don’t know all the details, I just know that between Remgro and Nigel the majority of the clubs debt has been written off in the last 18 months.

Yep, I had a dig in Companies house rather than rely on old data, and c 50m of debt disappeared between the penultimate statement and the last filed. That’s quite a hit for funders, alongside 3m operating loss.

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:

Banquo wrote: Ok. Assuming they are really debt free- how was the stadium financed out of interest?

The most recent development of one of their stands has been financed through a loan from Barnet council on very favourable terms.

I don’t know all the details, I just know that between Remgro and Nigel the majority of the clubs debt has been written off in the last 18 months.

Yep, I had a dig in Companies house rather than rely on old data, and c 50m of debt disappeared between the penultimate statement and the last filed. That’s quite a hit for funders, alongside 3m operating loss.

£50m!! Those dividends from VunProp must be tasty.

Is that the Wray £45 minion debt write off? And was it an actual write off, or a debt for equity swap?

Digby wrote:Is that the Wray £45 minion debt write off? And was it an actual write off, or a debt for equity swap?

I just looked at the creditors and p and l, didn’t get round to the commentary but if Timbo is right it’s equity, which is looking a tad like meagre pickings as it stands, but suspect it was never intended as an investment.

ETA- debt (loans) was converted to equity in the last reported tax year. Generous

Blimey.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51164177