Team news for Ireland.

[Banquo]

I think Slade could be better than Daly at FB but the long-term best option for the position is still Watson.

Jones's use of Daly there has curbed his attacking positional skills as he had to concentrate on his defensive ones. Daly needs to rove. I think seeing Daly rediscover his form on the wing is one of our best hopes for improving the attack provided that Jones keeps him there. It is the single admission of stubborn stupidity so far.

Whilst I agree that Daly is likely better used as a roving winger, his attacking from 15 was pretty good, bar sometimes being reluctant to pass to the free man outside him. He is quick and elusive, his attacking lines and points of entry were good, and for a while he was doing a great job in helping transition when we turned the ball over. His problem was the high ball and a bit of positional sense- but once a side sniff you are vulnerable under the high ball at 15, you are bu55ered as a 15 and the confidence in your own game disappears. Been there, albeit not at international level.

Am I right that only three of his thirteen tries were scored from FB?

a- no, its 5 in 21 games at 15, 8 in 16 starts on the wing
b- wings always score more tries than FB's
c- not sure what point you are making tbh

[Timbo]

Slade at 12? Where he's played maybe 5 times in his entire career including schoolboy rugby presumably because he can pass and kick, as opposed to playing him at 13 where he has been, you know, kinda good. That said it opens the midfield quandary over bringing Manu in one and then dropping Ford to the bench. What Jones intimated he should've played in the Final.

One thing they could consider, if he's fit, is playing Slade at 15 purely based on EJ's use of him in the RWC. I'm not sure I'm a fan of trying it, but then would it be worse than what we have today.

Not sure I follow the logic of not playing Slade at 12 because he doesn’t play there for his club, but then suggesting him playing at 15 as a possibility.

Personally, while many players would struggle changing from 13 to 12 at int level, I don’t think Slade is one of them. Mainly because he’s hugely talented and intelligent, but also because of the way he plays 13 at the Chiefs, often interchanging around 1st, 2nd receiver and further out.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Slade at 12? Where he's played maybe 5 times in his entire career including schoolboy rugby presumably because he can pass and kick, as opposed to playing him at 13 where he has been, you know, kinda good. That said it opens the midfield quandary over bringing Manu in one and then dropping Ford to the bench. What Jones intimated he should've played in the Final.

One thing they could consider, if he's fit, is playing Slade at 15 purely based on EJ's use of him in the RWC. I'm not sure I'm a fan of trying it, but then would it be worse than what we have today.

Not sure I follow the logic of not playing Slade at 12 because he doesn’t play there for his club, but then suggesting him playing at 15 as a possibility.

Personally, while many players would struggle changing from 13 to 12 at int level, I don’t think Slade is one of them. Mainly because he’s hugely talented and intelligent, but also because of the way he plays 13 at the Chiefs, often interchanging around 1st, 2nd receiver and further out.

Because EJ has employed him at 15 during the RWC.

[Digby]

Whilst I agree that Daly is likely better used as a roving winger, his attacking from 15 was pretty good, bar sometimes being reluctant to pass to the free man outside him. He is quick and elusive, his attacking lines and points of entry were good, and for a while he was doing a great job in helping transition when we turned the ball over. His problem was the high ball and a bit of positional sense- but once a side sniff you are vulnerable under the high ball at 15, you are bu55ered as a 15 and the confidence in your own game disappears. Been there, albeit not at international level.

Am I right that only three of his thirteen tries were scored from FB?

a- no, its 5 in 21 games at 15, 8 in 16 starts on the wing
b- wings always score more tries than FB's
c- not sure what point you are making tbh

But sure if I recall a once in a lifetime freak like Cullen I can refute point B entirely.

[Banquo]

Am I right that only three of his thirteen tries were scored from FB?

a- no, its 5 in 21 games at 15, 8 in 16 starts on the wing
b- wings always score more tries than FB's
c- not sure what point you are making tbh

But sure if I recall a once in a lifetime freak like Cullen I can refute point B entirely.

damn, I forgot to make that point, which I even thought of. Blanco also scored a lot of tries.

[Digby]

a- no, its 5 in 21 games at 15, 8 in 16 starts on the wing
b- wings always score more tries than FB's
c- not sure what point you are making tbh

But sure if I recall a once in a lifetime freak like Cullen I can refute point B entirely.

damn, I forgot to make that point, which I even thought of. Blanco also scored a lot of tries.

pfft, no pont mentioning average players to try and make a point, up your game please.

I'm a little bit sad to lose Daly at 15, he was getting lots right. If he's going to get hammered under the high ball and simply lose confidence a change is warranted, though for now we've gotten worse at 15

[Oakboy]

But sure if I recall a once in a lifetime freak like Cullen I can refute point B entirely.

damn, I forgot to make that point, which I even thought of. Blanco also scored a lot of tries.

pfft, no pont mentioning average players to try and make a point, up your game please.

I'm a little bit sad to lose Daly at 15, he was getting lots right. If he's going to get hammered under the high ball and simply lose confidence a change is warranted, though for now we've gotten worse at 15

I've always thought that Watson, Nowell and May were better FB prospects at top level than Daly. Until Banquo posted the stats I was unaware that Daly had started more games at FB than wing. As I understood Jones's theorising, Daly was supposed to provide a bigger counter-attacking threat than Brown (crazily selected on the wing originally) bringing more pace and better hands into the line. I'm not sure he ever produced a significantly higher threat than Brown in fact. 21 games is one hell of a lengthy experiment especially in the context of not giving the likes of Robson and Spencer 4 or 5.

[Banquo]

damn, I forgot to make that point, which I even thought of. Blanco also scored a lot of tries.

pfft, no pont mentioning average players to try and make a point, up your game please.

I'm a little bit sad to lose Daly at 15, he was getting lots right. If he's going to get hammered under the high ball and simply lose confidence a change is warranted, though for now we've gotten worse at 15

I've always thought that Watson, Nowell and May were better FB prospects at top level than Daly. Until Banquo posted the stats I was unaware that Daly had started more games at FB than wing. As I understood Jones's theorising, Daly was supposed to provide a bigger counter-attacking threat than Brown (crazily selected on the wing originally) bringing more pace and better hands into the line. I'm not sure he ever produced a significantly higher threat than Brown in fact. 21 games is one hell of a lengthy experiment especially in the context of not giving the likes of Robson and Spencer 4 or 5.

Que? As above, Daly brought loads to the attack. It’s without the ball that was the problem. Brown played like an individual ball in hand, and had a fairly limited skill set in attack.

[fivepointer]

Squad. No Mako due to family reasons. Obano in. Still no 8.
Forwards

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby), Ben Earl (Saracens), Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Beno Obano (Bath Rugby), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Will Stuart (Bath Rugby), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)

Backs

Elliot Daly (Saracens), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Fraser Dingwall (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), George Furbank (Northampton Saints), Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jacob Umaga (Wasps), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

[Oakboy]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

[Puja]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

[jngf]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

Would the RFU be stupid enough to do that given that I read somewhere that Jones has said he doesn’t want another World Cup cycle worth of doing such an intense job?

[p/d]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

I would welcome introducing a young'un than sticking with two old pit horses, I want Simmonds in at 8 and I want George made captain. And that has nothing to do with building for the WC.

[Gloskarlos]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

Simpson is now out for up to 12 weeks, with Heinz and Braley on duty we will finally get to see a little more of Chapman. I’m excited by what I’ve seen so far, albeit in very short bursts.

[Puja]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

Simpson is now out for up to 12 weeks, with Heinz and Braley on duty we will finally get to see a little more of Chapman. I’m excited by what I’ve seen so far, albeit in very short bursts.

A premiership club play a young English scrum-half? It is to laugh!



Puja

[Banquo]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

Finished his autobiography. One interesting thing from it, is that each of the coaches has a personal responsibility for the development of a particular unit/group of players- Jones has 9's and 10's........(at least that was the case going into the World Cup). Make of that what you will.

He's an absolute workaholic, and drives the coaches, and by extension the players extremely hard; he said the England group he took over were talented (and played tribute to Burt for finding them), but that they were hopelessly unfit for intl rugby, lacking any leadership, and really couldn't think much for themselves. He attributes this to the culture of English rugby, and to the very nature of Englishness (class, hierarchy); slams the club game for lack of speed and skill, and clearly articulates the club v country problem-for other national sides, the clubs/next tier down from intl rugby are happy to work towards the good of the national side. Frankly, he sounds like he doesn't like England or the English very much, but loves this group of players; he is clear that when coaching any sides, he will use what he perceives to be their core historical strengths to get a winning side out- in our case, strong set piece, dominant forwards, strong defence and an accurate kicking game. Considers SA and NZ the pre-emiment rugby nations, which is true; hated the Japan team being called the 'Brave Blossoms', implying losing with courage was acceptable. Massive fan of Steve Borthwick as player and coach.

Lots of chips on his shoulder - rich boys rugby vs working class, small bloke who didn't get picked for Australia (by his big mate Dwyer), prejudice against the Japanese (legit), couldn't stand Ed Griffiths at Sarries, or John O'Neill at the ARU, and pulls no punches about either. Complex man, very driven, very much a magpie of ideas, very focused on the detail and demands the same of his staff. Its a good read.

[Oakboy]

I still groan every time I see that the only SHs are Youngs and Heinz. Their presence is ridiculous in the run-up to the next RWC. Would Jones pick them if his contract extended to 2023?

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

Finished his autobiography. One interesting thing from it, is that each of the coaches has a personal responsibility for the development of a particular unit/group of players- Jones has 9's and 10's........(at least that was the case going into the World Cup). Make of that what you will.

He's an absolute workaholic, and drives the coaches, and by extension the players extremely hard; he said the England group he took over were talented (and played tribute to Burt for finding them), but that they were hopelessly unfit for intl rugby, lacking any leadership, and really couldn't think much for themselves. He attributes this to the culture of English rugby, and to the very nature of Englishness (class, hierarchy); slams the club game for lack of speed and skill, and clearly articulates the club v country problem-for other national sides, the clubs/next tier down from intl rugby are happy to work towards the good of the national side. Frankly, he sounds like he doesn't like England or the English very much, but loves this group of players; he is clear that when coaching any sides, he will use what he perceives to be their core historical strengths to get a winning side out- in our case, strong set piece, dominant forwards, strong defence and an accurate kicking game. Considers SA and NZ the pre-emiment rugby nations, which is true; hated the Japan team being called the 'Brave Blossoms', implying losing with courage was acceptable. Massive fan of Steve Borthwick as player and coach.

Lots of chips on his shoulder - rich boys rugby vs working class, small bloke who didn't get picked for Australia (by his big mate Dwyer), prejudice against the Japanese (legit), couldn't stand Ed Griffiths at Sarries, or John O'Neill at the ARU, and pulls no punches about either. Complex man, very driven, very much a magpie of ideas, very focused on the detail and demands the same of his staff. Its a good read.

Your conclusion, then? Is he a good fit for England at this point?

Reading too much into some of your comments, perhaps, to me, he comes across as a bit of a dinosaur - maybe a decade or so too late. The comments about Steve Borthwick, this group of players and the English don't fill me with enthusiasm.

[Epaminondas Pules]

You've got a bee in your bonnet about Jones's contract running out in 2021, but I don't see how it affects the scrum-halves. He clearly doesn't rate Robson or Spencer (I agree with him on the latter) and none of the youngsters are playing for their clubs.

Frankly, I welcome the idea of an England coach being interested in winning games over the next two years, rather than building for a tournament that's four years away.

Puja

Finished his autobiography. One interesting thing from it, is that each of the coaches has a personal responsibility for the development of a particular unit/group of players- Jones has 9's and 10's........(at least that was the case going into the World Cup). Make of that what you will.

He's an absolute workaholic, and drives the coaches, and by extension the players extremely hard; he said the England group he took over were talented (and played tribute to Burt for finding them), but that they were hopelessly unfit for intl rugby, lacking any leadership, and really couldn't think much for themselves. He attributes this to the culture of English rugby, and to the very nature of Englishness (class, hierarchy); slams the club game for lack of speed and skill, and clearly articulates the club v country problem-for other national sides, the clubs/next tier down from intl rugby are happy to work towards the good of the national side. Frankly, he sounds like he doesn't like England or the English very much, but loves this group of players; he is clear that when coaching any sides, he will use what he perceives to be their core historical strengths to get a winning side out- in our case, strong set piece, dominant forwards, strong defence and an accurate kicking game. Considers SA and NZ the pre-emiment rugby nations, which is true; hated the Japan team being called the 'Brave Blossoms', implying losing with courage was acceptable. Massive fan of Steve Borthwick as player and coach.

Lots of chips on his shoulder - rich boys rugby vs working class, small bloke who didn't get picked for Australia (by his big mate Dwyer), prejudice against the Japanese (legit), couldn't stand Ed Griffiths at Sarries, or John O'Neill at the ARU, and pulls no punches about either. Complex man, very driven, very much a magpie of ideas, very focused on the detail and demands the same of his staff. Its a good read.

Your conclusion, then? Is he a good fit for England at this point?

Reading too much into some of your comments, perhaps, to me, he comes across as a bit of a dinosaur - maybe a decade or so too late. The comments about Steve Borthwick, this group of players and the English don't fill me with enthusiasm.

General view I’ve seen is that he is visionary, the best observer and noticer of the tiniest things, but to be most effective needs complementary coaches.

Why do you think he is a decade of two too late?

[Oakboy]

Finished his autobiography. One interesting thing from it, is that each of the coaches has a personal responsibility for the development of a particular unit/group of players- Jones has 9's and 10's........(at least that was the case going into the World Cup). Make of that what you will.

He's an absolute workaholic, and drives the coaches, and by extension the players extremely hard; he said the England group he took over were talented (and played tribute to Burt for finding them), but that they were hopelessly unfit for intl rugby, lacking any leadership, and really couldn't think much for themselves. He attributes this to the culture of English rugby, and to the very nature of Englishness (class, hierarchy); slams the club game for lack of speed and skill, and clearly articulates the club v country problem-for other national sides, the clubs/next tier down from intl rugby are happy to work towards the good of the national side. Frankly, he sounds like he doesn't like England or the English very much, but loves this group of players; he is clear that when coaching any sides, he will use what he perceives to be their core historical strengths to get a winning side out- in our case, strong set piece, dominant forwards, strong defence and an accurate kicking game. Considers SA and NZ the pre-emiment rugby nations, which is true; hated the Japan team being called the 'Brave Blossoms', implying losing with courage was acceptable. Massive fan of Steve Borthwick as player and coach.

Lots of chips on his shoulder - rich boys rugby vs working class, small bloke who didn't get picked for Australia (by his big mate Dwyer), prejudice against the Japanese (legit), couldn't stand Ed Griffiths at Sarries, or John O'Neill at the ARU, and pulls no punches about either. Complex man, very driven, very much a magpie of ideas, very focused on the detail and demands the same of his staff. Its a good read.

Your conclusion, then? Is he a good fit for England at this point?

Reading too much into some of your comments, perhaps, to me, he comes across as a bit of a dinosaur - maybe a decade or so too late. The comments about Steve Borthwick, this group of players and the English don't fill me with enthusiasm.

General view I’ve seen is that he is visionary, the best observer and noticer of the tiniest things, but to be most effective needs complementary coaches.

Why do you think he is a decade of two too late?

I just think the only way forward is new ideas. The 'work 'em to death' bit is old-fashioned, IMO. It strikes me that small percentage achievements down that route come at a cost - usually injuries. I suppose we are just where we might expect to be having appointed a fairly old man on the theme of having to have an experienced international head coach. Frankly, if he could not do it in four years, he never will and I can't see any value in him in the next two years.

[Raggs]

Could not do what? Get us into the final of a world cup, and on the way, beating the ABs in pretty much the most dominant performance against them that has been seen in some time?

It's not like he got knocked out in the quarters or something.

[Scrumhead]

Raggs ... give up man. There’s no reasoning with him.

[Stom]

Jones just seems to me quite prescriptive. A lot of the more successful, or if we’re being realistic, moderately successful coaches are. But I feel as if we need, as a whole, a change to more heads up rugby. English rugby has seriously skilled up in recent years and we need to make use of that.

[jngf]

Jones just seems to me quite prescriptive. A lot of the more successful, or if we’re being realistic, moderately successful coaches are. But I feel as if we need, as a whole, a change to more heads up rugby. English rugby has seriously skilled up in recent years and we need to make use of that.

England were in the pits in RWC 2011 the dwarf tossing and harbour jumping constituting a final expiration of stomach bile from the RWC 2003 World Cup Hangover. Burt managed to restore pride in his players but stuck to rather too many club journeymen and square pegs in round holes selection and resulted in failure to qualify in RWC 2015. Eddie has managed to make England competitive again but in the final analysis were a one dimensional side reliant on crash ball tactics with no proven ability as yet to play a another style of rugby when deprived of Billy,Mako and Manu. I don’t see any vision or change in approach from Eddie going forward. I’d like to see a more cerebral coach taking over with an ability to extract the footballing skills from both our back and our forwards with a premium of skill over size in certain areas e.g. in centres whilst at the same time addressing the pack so that the front five have the Ballast and heft to enable a more creative back row to flourish with at least one component of that back row having the handling skills and pace to act as an ‘extra three quarter’. For that reason having had so many England coached being forwards in their playing days perhaps the next England coach could come from the backs?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Jones just seems to me quite prescriptive. A lot of the more successful, or if we’re being realistic, moderately successful coaches are. But I feel as if we need, as a whole, a change to more heads up rugby. English rugby has seriously skilled up in recent years and we need to make use of that.

Has English rugby seriously skilled up? In what way? Is that a thing to do with the england team of general league approach?

And why do you think Jones is prescriptive? From everything I hear he is the antithesis of that but has a workforce of players who are largely coached prescriptive rugby.

[jngf]

Jones just seems to me quite prescriptive. A lot of the more successful, or if we’re being realistic, moderately successful coaches are. But I feel as if we need, as a whole, a change to more heads up rugby. English rugby has seriously skilled up in recent years and we need to make use of that.

Has English rugby seriously skilled up? In what way? Is that a thing to do with the england team of general league approach?

And why do you think Jones is prescriptive? From everything I hear he is the antithesis of that but has a workforce of players who are largely coached prescriptive rugby.

From where are you hearing Jones is not prescriptive?