RugbyRebels

jngf wrote:

Stom wrote:

padprop wrote:
Time will tell I suppose, could very well to be wrong. Stuart has all the weapons to be a top top international tighthead, he’ll never Sinckler’s passing game or running lines, but his tight carrying is some of the best I’ve seen from an english prop. To be as mobile as he is at his weight is also an anomaly

Stuart is very good.

Sinckler is special.

Having that in your locker at international level is beyond useful.

I'm sure Stuart will become a good international, but he's not close to Sinckler, imo.

At the risk of straying out of my backrow/second row comfort zone should not the primary purpose of THP be out and out scrummaging ability? - I love Sinks loose play - arguably best in the world at what he does in loose play but ultimately who is the better scrummager between him and Stuart? - and I ask this not knowing the answer but simply that I would have thought that this would seem to be the acid test out of which of them should be first choice pick?

Eh. Sort of. A THP does need to be able to scrummage to an international standard, but if you've got 2 players over that benchmark, then it's not necessarily the stronger scrummager that's the better value to the team. Genge is a stronger scrummager than Mako, for example, but Mako is good enough that he very rarely gets f*cked about with and it's worth more to the team to have Mako's work rate, link-work, ruck-work, and decision-making than it would be to have a little bit more grunt in the scrum, which might not even win you any more ball (especially with the scrum-penalty-lottery that a lot of refs use).

Likewise, Stuart might be the better scrummager (unproven though and I do think Sinckler is underrated here as he's come on quite a bit), but as long as Sinckler isn't being actively beaten in the scrum, it's better to have parity and Sinckler's skills than it is to have a very slight edge.

Puja

Raggs wrote:I think Stuart is better in strength, but would back Sinks experience at the moment. I think Cole is probably still one of the best. I do not want Cole in the squad any more. There are not enough scrums in a game to justify picking solely on scrummaging ability. It's important, they have to be able to hold their own, which Sinkler can absolutely do, but they need to be able to do so much more now.

If the LHP and Hooker are both pretty mobile and good carriers can the THP not be more of an out and out scrum monster? In England’s case it would help if at least one of our locks had some ballast - hint please pick Launch, Kpoku or Moon Mr Jones! (Not lightweight Kruis or Ewels) - Sorry back on more familiar ground after only two threads

jngf wrote:

Raggs wrote:I think Stuart is better in strength, but would back Sinks experience at the moment. I think Cole is probably still one of the best. I do not want Cole in the squad any more. There are not enough scrums in a game to justify picking solely on scrummaging ability. It's important, they have to be able to hold their own, which Sinkler can absolutely do, but they need to be able to do so much more now.

If the LHP and Hooker are both pretty mobile and good carriers can the THP not be more of an out and out scrum monster? In England’s case it would help if at least one of our locks had some ballast - hint please pick Launch, Kpuko or Moon Mr Jones! (Not lightweight Kruis or Ewels) - Sorry back on more familiar ground after only two threads

Kruis was the strongest scrummaging lock we had. Itoje/Launch is a closer call.

How many scrums in an average game? How many rucks, lineouts, mauls and carries? Can't be a one trick pony anymore.

jngf wrote:

Raggs wrote:I think Stuart is better in strength, but would back Sinks experience at the moment. I think Cole is probably still one of the best. I do not want Cole in the squad any more. There are not enough scrums in a game to justify picking solely on scrummaging ability. It's important, they have to be able to hold their own, which Sinkler can absolutely do, but they need to be able to do so much more now.

If the LHP and Hooker are both pretty mobile and good carriers can the THP not be more of an out and out scrum monster? In England’s case it would help if at least one of our locks had some ballast - hint please pick Launch, Kpoku or Moon Mr Jones! (Not lightweight Kruis or Ewels) - Sorry back on more familiar ground after only two threads

Would you be happy with having 14 men on the pitch at all times except scrums? Cause that's mostly what you're suggesting here. And why would you do that for the sake of maybe winning another 3 scrum turnovers a game (assuming an absolute guaranteed dominator)?

Puja

Sinckler is a better scrummager than Stuart (now) anyway. He learnt off the best (Adam Jones).

Scrums matter - a lot. You can concede possession, territory and lose momentum if you cannot win your own ball, or get driven back on the oppositions. It can also wear a pack down to be constantly under pressure. It also has a galvanising effect on the opposition to get on top in the scrums and can wear down a teams spirits if you are the ones getting pumped.

The days of the prop as a pure scrummager are gone in the elite game as you have to offer something in the loose, but you still have to perform your basic function at any level.

Stom wrote:Sinckler is a better scrummager than Stuart (now) anyway. He learnt off the best (Adam Jones).

Jones’s scrumming wasn’t the best when the hit was taken away, he even openly admits that

fivepointer wrote:Scrums matter - a lot. You can concede possession, territory and lose momentum if you cannot win your own ball, or get driven back on the oppositions. It can also wear a pack down to be constantly under pressure. It also has a galvanising effect on the opposition to get on top in the scrums and can wear down a teams spirits if you are the ones getting pumped.

The days of the prop as a pure scrummager are gone in the elite game as you have to offer something in the loose, but you still have to perform your basic function at any level.

Hear hear, we’ve just come off the back of two of the most high profile games (World cup final and Sarries vs Leinster) where the scrum was a massive contributor to the respective wins. That has to be the port of call initally for any international tighthead if you are looking to win a world cup (You need to at least have the ability to be dominant and not just “hang in there”). If you have no scrum threat, then opposition teams will just keep the ball in and farm and penalty knowing theyre in no danger.

Saying that, Stuart did seem to get roasted at a couple scrums at the weekend so still some obvious work ons

Puja wrote:

jngf wrote:

Raggs wrote:I think Stuart is better in strength, but would back Sinks experience at the moment. I think Cole is probably still one of the best. I do not want Cole in the squad any more. There are not enough scrums in a game to justify picking solely on scrummaging ability. It's important, they have to be able to hold their own, which Sinkler can absolutely do, but they need to be able to do so much more now.

If the LHP and Hooker are both pretty mobile and good carriers can the THP not be more of an out and out scrum monster? In England’s case it would help if at least one of our locks had some ballast - hint please pick Launch, Kpoku or Moon Mr Jones! (Not lightweight Kruis or Ewels) - Sorry back on more familiar ground after only two threads

Would you be happy with having 14 men on the pitch at all times except scrums? Cause that's mostly what you're suggesting here. And why would you do that for the sake of maybe winning another 3 scrum turnovers a game (assuming an absolute guaranteed dominator)?

Puja

Not really. You can be a scrum monster, and be picked primarily on that facet of your game, but you'll still contribute elsewhere. Just being excellent in one area doesn't mean everything else is rubbish.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Puja wrote:

jngf wrote:
If the LHP and Hooker are both pretty mobile and good carriers can the THP not be more of an out and out scrum monster? In England’s case it would help if at least one of our locks had some ballast - hint please pick Launch, Kpoku or Moon Mr Jones! (Not lightweight Kruis or Ewels) - Sorry back on more familiar ground after only two threads

Would you be happy with having 14 men on the pitch at all times except scrums? Cause that's mostly what you're suggesting here. And why would you do that for the sake of maybe winning another 3 scrum turnovers a game (assuming an absolute guaranteed dominator)?

Puja

Not really. You can be a scrum monster, and be picked primarily on that facet of your game, but you'll still contribute elsewhere. Just being excellent in one area doesn't mean everything else is rubbish.

Julian White.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Puja wrote:
Would you be happy with having 14 men on the pitch at all times except scrums? Cause that's mostly what you're suggesting here. And why would you do that for the sake of maybe winning another 3 scrum turnovers a game (assuming an absolute guaranteed dominator)?

Puja

Not really. You can be a scrum monster, and be picked primarily on that facet of your game, but you'll still contribute elsewhere. Just being excellent in one area doesn't mean everything else is rubbish.

Julian White.

Puja

Hell of a right hook, more useful than a show-and-go IMO

It's a question of balance. Did we gain more with Cole on the pitch or Sinckler? Cole is/was the better scrummager, but I haven't wanted him to start for years.

I mean in prime cole brought a lot more to the park than scrummaging especially his ruck work which seemed to go after his neck injury.

Puja wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Puja wrote:
Would you be happy with having 14 men on the pitch at all times except scrums? Cause that's mostly what you're suggesting here. And why would you do that for the sake of maybe winning another 3 scrum turnovers a game (assuming an absolute guaranteed dominator)?

Puja

Not really. You can be a scrum monster, and be picked primarily on that facet of your game, but you'll still contribute elsewhere. Just being excellent in one area doesn't mean everything else is rubbish.

Julian White.

Puja

Carl Hayman

Both long retired, so somewhat pointless.

Owen Franks has never been a dynamo round the park but has two world cups to his name. Ditto Malherbe.

Piers Francis out after testing positive for covid.

Ruh-Roh!

What’s happened to Ted Hill?

I R Geech wrote:What’s happened to Ted Hill?

Worcester are allegedly playing tomorrow in the COVIDBowl against the Sale Superspreaders.

Puja

padprop wrote:Owen Franks has never been a dynamo round the park but has two world cups to his name. Ditto Malherbe.

He has also been rank average since joining the Premiership, in both scrummaging and loose play

Adam_P wrote:

padprop wrote:Owen Franks has never been a dynamo round the park but has two world cups to his name. Ditto Malherbe.

He has also been rank average since joining the Premiership, in both scrummaging and loose play

Are you his agent? Rank average is generous. I do wonder if there will be an agreement where he leaves early so Saints can spend the money on more depth up front. I'm sure he could still get a good chunk of cash in Japan.

Puja wrote:

I R Geech wrote:What’s happened to Ted Hill?

Worcester are allegedly playing tomorrow in the COVIDBowl against the Sale Superspreaders.

Puja

I suspect that's why we aren't seeing Lawrence as well.

Piers Francis out of the squad though with COVID, so maybe Lawrence will be called up if the Sale game is called off?

Johnny Williams has just been called up by Wales.

Pivac looking to getting Harry Randell into the Wales set up - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54442703

The reason any Worcester or Sale players have been left out is the final league fixture.

I fully expect Lawrence, Hill and at least Tom Curry to be added when the squad is updated in a couple of weeks.

jimKRFC wrote:Pivac looking to getting Harry Randell into the Wales set up - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/54442703

Pivac is aggressively going after anyone who is Welsh qualified.

I guess it’s his job, but it’s very unedifying and an indictment on Welsh rugby IMO.