Major Unions facing a head injuries law suit

[Digby]

I'm doubtful in advance this one goes to trial. Nobody wants a trial in the main anyway 'cause the risk is much higher, and here the unions would be trying to stick it to some sympathetic plaintiffs a huge number of people think the unions should be helping whatever else has gone on.

Where on earth the money comes from isn't clear, maybe the game will be able to make annual payments rather than find it all upfront

[Raggs]

Not searching for it now but rugby and the law Twitter account has a thread on this. Quite informative.

[fivepointer]

see here -

well worth a read.

[jimKRFC]

THe Guardian has one up with ALix Popham now as well - similiar story to Steve Thompsons:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ial-report

[Stom]

THe Guardian has one up with ALix Popham now as well - similiar story to Steve Thompsons:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ial-report

Lipman, too.

They’re going all in.

[Mr Mwenda]

Interestingly, yesterday all the headlines referred to "rugby" but they've now switched to "rugby union". #paranoia

[stevedog1980]

Speaking as someone who has a similar, if less serious problem, that is exactly what it's like. I can tell you about a party that I went to 10 years ago, but I can't tell you any memories of my father. It's not linear or predictable and it is f*cking awful.

Puja

Your experience sounds very similar to my experience. I struggle to remember where anything I have recently put down is, if I'm browsing Instagram and it prompts a thought to open an internet browser to look at something, if I don't do it immediately then it's a real struggle to recall why I opened it. One luxury that really helps me these days is having a car that the wing mirrors fold in when you lock the doors, convincing myself the car was locked before that was a nightmare!!

I am not sure how old you are, I'm 40. I only played rugby for a couple of years and at a low level. I don't attribute my mental difficulties with rugby. However, I am Scottish and enjoyed an active social life for 15 years or so with some top quality binge drinking. I am sure that rugby is a contributory factor to brain health but I am pretty sure that more damage would have been done to me through the weeks spent in the pubs & nightclubs than I did on the rugby pitch. I'd also be interested to know (I've never checked, just thought of it now) on what the effects are of heavy drinking whilst concussed.

[p/d]

THe Guardian has one up with ALix Popham now as well - similiar story to Steve Thompsons:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ial-report

Lipman, too.

They’re going all in.

And now from the ladies game

[ad_tigger]

I am not sure how old you are, I'm 40. I only played rugby for a couple of years and at a low level. I don't attribute my mental difficulties with rugby. However, I am Scottish and enjoyed an active social life for 15 years or so with some top quality binge drinking. I am sure that rugby is a contributory factor to brain health but I am pretty sure that more damage would have been done to me through the weeks spent in the pubs & nightclubs than I did on the rugby pitch. I'd also be interested to know (I've never checked, just thought of it now) on what the effects are of heavy drinking whilst concussed.

That's a really good and fascinating point and it may be a get out for the unions. If there's any evidence that any of these guys got blatted after a head knock then it might be very difficult to ascribe responsibility for the dementia to the union/club etc... Morally repugnant I know. It reminds me of the asbestos situation where if you'd been exposed by one employer you could get something from them, but if you'd been exposed by two or more they just blamed the other. Don't know if that ever got sorted out properly....

[Raggs]

I am not sure how old you are, I'm 40. I only played rugby for a couple of years and at a low level. I don't attribute my mental difficulties with rugby. However, I am Scottish and enjoyed an active social life for 15 years or so with some top quality binge drinking. I am sure that rugby is a contributory factor to brain health but I am pretty sure that more damage would have been done to me through the weeks spent in the pubs & nightclubs than I did on the rugby pitch. I'd also be interested to know (I've never checked, just thought of it now) on what the effects are of heavy drinking whilst concussed.

That's a really good and fascinating point and it may be a get out for the unions. If there's any evidence that any of these guys got blatted after a head knock then it might be very difficult to ascribe responsibility for the dementia to the union/club etc... Morally repugnant I know. It reminds me of the asbestos situation where if you'd been exposed by one employer you could get something from them, but if you'd been exposed by two or more they just blamed the other. Don't know if that ever got sorted out properly....

There's also now the fact that we live in a new world in terms of instant information. Our phones and internet browsing (you mention instagram), allow us to recover information instantly, without a requirement for recall or much memory work. That instant gratification effectively trains our brains to not need to check. In aspects of life without that, it can easily bleed through (did you lock the doors of the car), where we cannot get that instant knowledge.

[Puja]

Speaking as someone who has a similar, if less serious problem, that is exactly what it's like. I can tell you about a party that I went to 10 years ago, but I can't tell you any memories of my father. It's not linear or predictable and it is f*cking awful.

Puja

Your experience sounds very similar to my experience. I struggle to remember where anything I have recently put down is, if I'm browsing Instagram and it prompts a thought to open an internet browser to look at something, if I don't do it immediately then it's a real struggle to recall why I opened it. One luxury that really helps me these days is having a car that the wing mirrors fold in when you lock the doors, convincing myself the car was locked before that was a nightmare!!

I am not sure how old you are, I'm 40. I only played rugby for a couple of years and at a low level. I don't attribute my mental difficulties with rugby. However, I am Scottish and enjoyed an active social life for 15 years or so with some top quality binge drinking. I am sure that rugby is a contributory factor to brain health but I am pretty sure that more damage would have been done to me through the weeks spent in the pubs & nightclubs than I did on the rugby pitch. I'd also be interested to know (I've never checked, just thought of it now) on what the effects are of heavy drinking whilst concussed.

I'm 36 and have played through several concussions in my time. None recently, but I have definitely kept playing when somebody should have hauled me off, mostly because when I'm knocked stupid(er) I revert to the attitudes of my youth in rugby of "it's not that bad and it's weakness to come off". I don't know whether my memory issues are rugby related (kinda hard to prove anything with the brain), but I'd say it's likely.

To be clear, I don't blame any of my coaches and I don't want to sue anybody - it wasn't known about when I started playing and, while the culture of the time on head knocks looks appalling when looked at through today's values, it was as it was.

Puja

[francoisfou]

An important consequence of this will be parents not wanting their children to take up rugby so without a shadow of doubt there’ll be far fewer players at club level in the next 10/15 years. Unless this problem is addressed quickly, our sport may cease to exist.

[Banquo]

An important consequence of this will be parents not wanting their children to take up rugby so without a shadow of doubt there’ll be far fewer players at club level in the next 10/15 years. Unless this problem is addressed quickly, our sport may cease to exist.

Yep, it’s already happening I reckon

[Digby]

If we can't deal with the issue the sport should cease to exist

[ad_tigger]

An important consequence of this will be parents not wanting their children to take up rugby so without a shadow of doubt there’ll be far fewer players at club level in the next 10/15 years. Unless this problem is addressed quickly, our sport may cease to exist.

Yep, it’s already happening I reckon

This is the live issue I have right now. My lad plays under 10s and while all the coaches take the issues very seriously fundamentally we don't actually know how to protect people's brains whilst they play rugby. I wouldn't stop him playing but I am worried for him especially as he adores the physical aspect. For me the ideal would be that he plays for as long as he enjoys it but finds something he likes even more to fill his time and keep him fit. One thing's for sure I wouldn't want him to play professional rugby without significant changes in culture and early diagnosis and mitigation of potential long term problems.

It should be said that I speak from the perspective of playing through the age grades then doing other stuff at uni, a year of senior rugby and stopping with a torn hamstring that I didn't want to risk. I don't recall any concussions playing rugby but I did have a very serious one aged 14 (several hours of zero short term memory, night in hospital, never really got the previous 2 months of memories back) falling a long way off a rope swing and hitting my head. I read the Lipman piece and some of it rang true, mood swings, dodgy memory in places but I couldn't attribute that directly to the fall.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

An important consequence of this will be parents not wanting their children to take up rugby so without a shadow of doubt there’ll be far fewer players at club level in the next 10/15 years. Unless this problem is addressed quickly, our sport may cease to exist.

Yep, it’s already happening I reckon

This is the live issue I have right now. My lad plays under 10s and while all the coaches take the issues very seriously fundamentally we don't actually know how to protect people's brains whilst they play rugby. I wouldn't stop him playing but I am worried for him especially as he adores the physical aspect. For me the ideal would be that he plays for as long as he enjoys it but finds something he likes even more to fill his time and keep him fit. One thing's for sure I wouldn't want him to play professional rugby without significant changes in culture and early diagnosis and mitigation of potential long term problems.

It should be said that I speak from the perspective of playing through the age grades then doing other stuff at uni, a year of senior rugby and stopping with a torn hamstring that I didn't want to risk. I don't recall any concussions playing rugby but I did have a very serious one aged 14 (several hours of zero short term memory, night in hospital, never really got the previous 2 months of memories back) falling a long way off a rope swing and hitting my head. I read the Lipman piece and some of it rang true, mood swings, dodgy memory in places but I couldn't attribute that directly to the fall.

Yep, I'd agree with this. My son is 6 and started playing at the local club this year. He was very disappointed at first that it was non-contact! As with everyone in my family, there's probably no chance of him playing anywhere outside of the pack, and he's already more interested in smashing people (me) than playing catch or learning skills, despite my best efforts.
Looking back at myself I think the last 2 or 3 years have certainly put a different spin on the dodgy knee that made it pretty much impossible to play from 16 onwards. And while I certainly hope the boy carries on with the game and enjoys it as much as and preferably for longer than I did, I sort of hope he doesn't get too good.
It also makes me wonder about my dad who played well into his late 30's as a tight head. While he's definitely all there, he forgets more than most people in their late 50's and his speech has got consistently more slurry in the last 10 years.

[Raggs]

We also have to remember though, that a lot of people now in their 40s and 50s have not benefitted from law and attitude changes, hell, even those in their 30s haven't really. To see the effects of the changes that have been implemented, it's the 20 year olds now that should show the benefits.

[p/d]

Just cancel contact sport, turn off the lights and close the door.
I’m sure the inventors of virtual sport can fill the void

[Banquo]

Just cancel contact sport, turn off the lights and close the door.
I’m sure the inventors of virtual sport can fill the void

That seems to be the almost inevitable direction of travel.

[p/d]

Just cancel contact sport, turn off the lights and close the door.
I’m sure the inventors of virtual sport can fill the void

That seems to be the almost inevitable direction of travel.

Sadly so. But preferable to lining the pockets of money grabbing lawyers

[Mellsblue]

THe Guardian has one up with ALix Popham now as well - similiar story to Steve Thompsons:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... ial-report

Lipman, too.

They’re going all in.

And now from the ladies game

Let’s hope the ology was neurobiology.

[morepork]

40 is insanely young for dementia. That is in the region of rare dominant negative heritable forms of Alzheimer's would struggle to kick in that young. Outside of that, I don't think there is a sporadic (non-heritable) form of disease-associated dementia that comes even close to being that aggressive. There is a big neurobiology fundamental just waiting to be found in there somewhere.

[Digby]

Just cancel contact sport, turn off the lights and close the door.
I’m sure the inventors of virtual sport can fill the void

That seems to be the almost inevitable direction of travel.

Sadly so. But preferable to lining the pockets of money grabbing lawyers

There's a charming combination here of snowflake meets grumpy old man

[OnlyMonikerRemaining]

I'd love to see the pleadings on this in due course. Agree with the reasoning that sticking them back on without being too concerned about their welfare is a triable issue but not against WR surely?
The clubs and unions yes and bear in mind there is an employer/employee relationship there that would give the players additional clout.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Some observations:
1. Concussion is a serious brain injury. Everyone knew that. That's why there was a mandatory stand down period even when I was a kid in the 80s and 90s.
2. It follows that it's very difficult for Unions or clubs to say "we didn't know that there was any issue".
3. The decrease in the stand down period whether for professionals or others was pretty clearly unjustifiable, either on the basis that everyone knew here were risks, or that the risks weren't well enough known to decrease the protections that exist.
4. You can't exclude liability for personal injury.
5. "You knew the risks" really doesn't work in combination with "we didn't know there was an issue". The moment any club or Union says "You knew the risks" they are accepting that they did as well.
6. "You knew the risks" can only ever amount to contributory negligence, not a defence.
7. You don't need to anticipate the precise injury which eventuates to be liable, so the fact that no one knew about CTE isn't going to save them from suit.