We need to talk about Eddie...

[Scrumhead]

True. To concede 40 points is embarrassing, particularly when I can’t recall a single Welsh line-break of any real note.

Pretty much all of those points were self inflicted rather than created by a moment of quality from the Welsh team. Even allowing for the bizarre refereeing decisions for the first two tries, our indiscipline gave them the field position and opportunity.

IIRC correctly, two of the penalties in the second half were when we had the ball and either sealed-off or went off feet. Just unforgivable really.

[loudnconfident]

"Elliott - was bad, and it's not just a single bad day at the office. He's not a fullback, and whilst it was a worthwhile experiment, it's also a failed one, that's been given longer than it should have been. He's easily replaced as we already have better options in the squad, including one that actually plays the way we want Daly to (Watson or Steward change the balance and set-up of the team, and need a new game-plan. Malins does on the pitch what Daly does on paper)."
This has been a consistent plaint. Eddie insists on playing people out of position. Daly is the most obvious example. A fine winger, he is simply not a natural FB (IMO he lacks the psychopathic edge required in that role) and, though he can look great in a dominant team, is naturally found wanting when things get tougher. I'd bring back Mike Brown - or use Malins, or anyone who usually plays FB at high level.

[Digby]

I don't blame him for everything up front, there was nothing any of the backs could really do about that, but I think he makes poor individual errors too and has continued to look shaky as a fullback for quite a while now. I'm sure he'd improve if everything was rosy from 1-14 but I'm not holding my breath for that either.

Don't think we've had many fullbacks who don't make errors, from Robinson to Lucy to Hull or Catt, or Webb, or Monye or Brown or Armitage. He, Daly, is there now, he does some good stuff and he's got a number of caps which is rather useful.

I think he's put himself well and truly in the could be replaced camp by turning his back on a score, but I don't see an obvious player that makes you think he'll lock down the shirt like Matt Burke if we do try someone else, probably Malins. Something does have to give after that performance though, or lack of, he's going to know he's in the possible firing line

Daly doesnt look like a man who enjoys 15, probably because hes had to learn the position almost exclusively in an England shirt. Tough to do in a position where experience and positional sense are key, and where any technical flaws are exposed.... over and over. I like what he can do ball in hand a lot- though oddly for a 13 originally he dies with the ball too much- but reckon he could offer most of it from the wing, his best intl position, Defensively he is cack at 15, despite a slight improvement under the high ball.

He's certainly not solid, even putting massive failings for conceding an uncontested try aside. And I've no over riding objection to wanting him replaced, it's not like I didn't spend pretty much the entirety of Brown's tenure wanting him replaced, and Daly just has different failings. I'm just not sure who I'd replace him with and whether on balance they'd be any better

[Oakboy]

The other problem symptomatic of the current Jones team is simple inconsistency: game to game, at different points of an 80 minute game and of the way similar play scenarios develop. I can't know what is going on in training but something is wrong. Players appear to lack composure on some occasions, motivation on others and apparent confidence in the system quite often.

[Mikey Brown]

True, but hard to discuss that beyond just hoping they stop giving pens away.

Youngs is Youngs and that won't change, but Robson is a weird one. I thought EJ was going to skip to the next generation after Heinz went down and he never seemed particularly keen on Robson before so I'm surprised he's still the one on the bench at the moment. It'll presumably be about 2024 before we see more than 3 minutes of Randall at once so who knows.

I really hope Jones rethinks how he might be able to use Lawrence.

I think Kelly Brown might have been Scotland captain for a 6 nations and dropped half way through it, not that I'm suggesting that's a good reason to do it.

[Banquo]

True. To concede 40 points is embarrassing, particularly when I can’t recall a single Welsh line-break of any real note.

Pretty much all of those points were self inflicted rather than created by a moment of quality from the Welsh team. Even allowing for the bizarre refereeing decisions for the first two tries, our indiscipline gave them the field position and opportunity.

IIRC correctly, two of the penalties in the second half were when we had the ball and either sealed-off or went off feet. Just unforgivable really.

Sheedy went between LCD and someone off a lineout, but that's about it. We spent almost half the game shooting ourselves in the foot with a fussy ref; Wales spent the last 15 minutes being sensible.

[Banquo]

True, but hard to discuss that beyond just hoping they stop giving pens away.

Youngs is Youngs and that won't change, but Robson is a weird one. I thought EJ was going to skip to the next generation after Heinz went down and he never seemed particularly keen on Robson before so I'm surprised he's still the one on the bench at the moment. It'll presumably be about 2024 before we see more than 3 minutes of Randall at once so who knows.

I really hope Jones rethinks how he might be able to use Lawrence.

I think Kelly Brown might have been Scotland captain for a 6 nations and dropped half way through it, not that I'm suggesting that's a good reason to do it.

Well it would likely solve many if not most problems from the last year tbh; I think changing the skipper would definitely help. Until you sort the discipline, all the tinkering is lipstick on a pig. We even know from yesterday that the side can play if the likes of Vunipola get us on the front foot, and get quick ball so Youngs doesn't have to think.

We could look at the ring rust, but I thought Mako, George, Billy and even (and this hurts) Faz were amongst our better players yesterday; Itoje was frankly maddening, but still sharp I thought. Daly is still looking out of position. Youngs, Curry, May, Slade, Watson, Sinckler were all ok, as was Ford. At an individual level, there were a lot of decent performances, but offset by rank discipline with a petty ref. Wales were just smarter and so earned the win.

[Oakboy]

Jones knew who the ref would be!!!!

[Banquo]

Jones knew who the ref would be!!!!

Also true. Has he previous? He was J Arthur

However, and this will further inflame the Dors-irevjones, the discipline issue is ref-independent; this merely exposed it almost as a pastiche.

[fivepointer]

Some stats from Russ Petty

England average penalties conceded = 7.2 in 2019, 9.0 in 2020, 13.6 in 2021

2nd time England conceded 40 points v NH opposition (43 v Ireland 2007)

Most points Wales have scored v England

Ouch!!

[Banquo]

England average penalties conceded = 7.2 in 2019, 9.0 in 2020, 13.6 in 2021

QED

[Mr Mwenda]

I'll just copy/paste this across from a post I put in another board - it was explicitly addressing another post, but I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

As a sport, we've become ever more coach-led and don't trust players who go off script.
As a player, if you stick to the script, then it's not your fault if the script is wrong - if you go off script, then it's on you, succeed or fail. Go off script too often, and you'll be dropped as the coach can't trust you to play the game-plan.
I find this sad, but I also remember the reaction last time we had a coach who tried to empower the players - the players empowered themselves, reached a RWC final, and everyone blamed the coach, who was fired, for empowering the players.

Billy - a welcome return to form - not great form, but enough to retain his place on merit.

Owen - actually played okay, even ran a few IC lines and asked the defence some questions (basic ones, but better than not).
What he should have done better is to be respectful of the ref. Right or wrong, his word is final. The ref gets to talk first in any conversation, DO NOT talk over him. That gives you a chance to take a few breaths, and force yourself to relax and be less aggressive. Call him sir, say "yes" and that you understand but...
If your team is giving away soft penalties all over the place, you ARE going to lose the ref, and it's up to the skipper to impose better discipline. Don't tell your team mate that they were harshly done by when they were stupid - tell them that shit happens, but don't don't again.
If the ref is being particularly pernickety, then you need to be whiter than white - even if it puts you at a disadvantage in-play.

Elliott - was bad, and it's not just a single bad day at the office. He's not a fullback, and whilst it was a worthwhile experiment, it's also a failed one, that's been given longer than it should have been. He's easily replaced as we already have better options in the squad, including one that actually plays the way we want Daly to (Watson or Steward change the balance and set-up of the team, and need a new game-plan. Malins does on the pitch what Daly does on paper).

Benji - I've talked about this before, but I don't think it's been on this board. Youngs is a naturally talented scrum-half, when he's playing on instinct. Wind him up and let him go, and he can be brilliant, genuinely world class. He'll make mistakes, but they'll be massively outweighed by the good he can bring.
But he's... a bit thick I guess, or possibly not self-confident enough. He's got good instincts, but makes terrible decisions. Ask him to be the playmaker rather than the opportunist and he's great. Tell him to play off 9, select his runners, call the play, and he can't process all the information and starts second guessing himself, takes 3 times longer, and executes poorly and can lose us a game on his own.

Jonny - performed to my biases yesterday. He's played well in the prem and absolutely earned a shot at international level, but I'm not convinced. But nor is Ewels. In a team making too many brain farts, we can't afford him. Unfortunately, Kruis, Lawes and Launch are all unavailable; it's also too early (for me) to call him a failed experiment, but he's really not putting any pressure on those ahead of him in the pecking order.

Dan - on one of Youngs good days, can't complain about sitting on the bench for that long. He's not getting long anyway, even on Youngs bad days, but he needs to do better in 10 minutes if he wants to be trusted with longer.

Ellis - meh, props give away penalities, especially when you're in the ref's bad books as a team. I'd need info from people far more knowledgeable than I about the scrum to say what needs to be done there.

Maro - needs to be captain, and given past experience, that's probably help his game - it worked for Jonno, and Dylan, I see no reason it wouldn't for such an intelligent player. I think he's been given licence to live as close to the edge as he can, and that it's worth the penalties, which comes from higher up; and on a day like yesterday when things aren't going your way, you'll give away too many. I'd suggest he needs to adapt to the ref on the day more than the laws as a whole, and play ever so slightly within himself (or be allowed a touch more leeway as captains usually are).


Discipline - Eddie likes fighty, tough players and fighty, tough teams who play on the edge. I think he's got too many that push too far , but his win ratio in general disagrees with me. Playing like that will always leave you open to sometimes just pissing off the ref, and getting pinged off the plark.

Are we kidding ourselves? - we have a lot of individual talent in the prem, but that doesn't necessarily make a good team, and a lot of that talent is concentrated into positions with a lot of depth. We've a dozen backrowers who have all earned the right to show what they can do. They can't all, and the players in their positions are mostly going well themselves. Billy has in a rut for a while, but we know he's also world class when not in a rut, equally most of our backrow talent is on the flank - where the best are already being looked at. At #8, Wilson, Earl, Willis and Simmonds are all flankers who can cover 8 rather than specialists, they all require a complete reworking of the back 5 and game-plan. Dombrandt is simply not ready for international level yet (maybe this summer), Mercer should have been given a chance during Billy's rut (I know some don't see it - in much the same way that I don't see it in JHill) - but he's thrown his toys out of the pram and taken himself out of contention (I hope it works for him, and that he comes back stronger in a couple of years, but for now, he's not eligible).
At FH, Ford is world class and Farrell is a good international, and neither are remotely close to the scrap heap. However good Umaga, Smith or (especially) Simmonds are, they've got to show that they're better than that. Bear in mid - they won't be given the game-plan they want, they'll have the same restrictions placed on them that Ford does.
It's 9 and 12 we most desperately need someone to come through, we're starting to experiment, but several of our best talents have gone elsewhere.

Premiership - is ever less relevant to international sport. Club coaches get an 8 week pre-season and 36 week season with their players and no contradictions. Internationals get 2 1-week pre-seasons and 4 or 8 week season with their players, contradicting what most of them are told at club level.

Rest of the 6N - There's not a huge amount Eddie can do right now. We're limited by a 28 man squad; and are mid-tournament, we can look at replacing players; and ripping up game-plans, but have to accept that there are consequences to these things.
Ripping up a game-plan mid-tournament, is simply not an option. We live in a world where tactics and game-plans take years to develop. This year especially, with Covid and Saracens' drama; changing ref. interpretations, it's even less viable to just throw it out.
Which leaves us with changing players - and TBH, we're only really looking at the spine of the team.
At Hooker, George found a bit of form against Wales; if he's our first choice hooker, then he really has to start - it's not like LCD is an unknown quantity, or not getting any chances - even if I personally prefer him. It's certainly a judgement call, and I've no problem with a coach who simply disagrees with me about judgement calls.
At #8, as discussed above, Billy has found a bit of form, that was probably his best game in 2 years for England - we also don't have any replacements that don't require either a complete rejig of the back 5, alongside a change in tactics - that would need to be part of a long-term plan; that isn't about to happen. I still think Billy needed to be dropped for a match or 2 in the lead-up to the RWC19 to give him a kick up the arse (and try options as injury cover) but it's too late for that, and we can't viably drop someone after their best performance in a while.
At 9, Youngs has been discussed ad nauseam; but Robson, or anyone else, needs to actually earn the right to expect 30 minutes, let alone 60. The more Robson plays, the more I understand why he wasn't really looked at earlier - and there's no point in bitching that he should have been tried 5 years ago. Have to suspect that the same might apply to Spencer too, who's always had issues with consistency, and being stuck on Saracens' bench for too long.
At 10, Ford is world class, and Fazlet is international class. I don't think Smith or Umaga would keep up their form if forced to play the England game-plan, and I understand why they're being overlooked. Simmonds is the one who could potentially slot right in; but he needs basically needs 2 injuries ahead of him to get an opportunity. Ford isn't playing badly enough to be dropped, and Fazlet is our captain.
At 12, Lawrence is being given chances, but playing him at 12 moves Fazlet to 10, and we know that doesn't work. I want to see Faz dropped at least as far as the bench; but that means stripping him of the captaincy mid-tournament, and I can't think of any international coach who would do that.
At 15, Daly is in serious danger, and we even have a replacement within the squad - he's the only one I can think of who actually should be replaced.

As for any arguments that the result must force change - yesterday's refereeing display gives Eddie all the excuses he needs not to.

Good post.

[Stom]

We can fiddle about all we want, but there are a small handful of selection changes mooted that are serious options, and ones that revolve round and round. All irrelevent whilst conceding 13+ penalties a game, most of which are unforced and give sides easy territory and points.

I agree. Most of the changes people propose would need a change in system.

It’s why I, like you it seems, feel like changing the captain and instilling a different attitude would be the best way forward.

While I’m definitely on the Itoje for captain bandwagon... for me the best choice, one that will shape the team into one that’s more cohesive and disciplined, is Ford.

[Mikey Brown]

True, but hard to discuss that beyond just hoping they stop giving pens away.

Youngs is Youngs and that won't change, but Robson is a weird one. I thought EJ was going to skip to the next generation after Heinz went down and he never seemed particularly keen on Robson before so I'm surprised he's still the one on the bench at the moment. It'll presumably be about 2024 before we see more than 3 minutes of Randall at once so who knows.

I really hope Jones rethinks how he might be able to use Lawrence.

I think Kelly Brown might have been Scotland captain for a 6 nations and dropped half way through it, not that I'm suggesting that's a good reason to do it.

Well it would likely solve many if not most problems from the last year tbh; I think changing the skipper would definitely help. Until you sort the discipline, all the tinkering is lipstick on a pig. We even know from yesterday that the side can play if the likes of Vunipola get us on the front foot, and get quick ball so Youngs doesn't have to think.

We could look at the ring rust, but I thought Mako, George, Billy and even (and this hurts) Faz were amongst our better players yesterday; Itoje was frankly maddening, but still sharp I thought. Daly is still looking out of position. Youngs, Curry, May, Slade, Watson, Sinckler were all ok, as was Ford. At an individual level, there were a lot of decent performances, but offset by rank discipline with a petty ref. Wales were just smarter and so earned the win.

I wasn't meaning to suggest that isn't the case, just that there isn't so much to ponder about not reading the ref. Discipline is the biggest issue right now, but I do think it's also wrapped up in the way we approach the game in general. There are ways we put ourselves under pressure that keep adding to these moments of indiscipline, killing our momentum. I'd hope for more tactical than personnel changes, but I'm not sure I see it happening.

[Oakboy]

We can fiddle about all we want, but there are a small handful of selection changes mooted that are serious options, and ones that revolve round and round. All irrelevent whilst conceding 13+ penalties a game, most of which are unforced and give sides easy territory and points.

I agree. Most of the changes people propose would need a change in system.

It’s why I, like you it seems, feel like changing the captain and instilling a different attitude would be the best way forward.

While I’m definitely on the Itoje for captain bandwagon... for me the best choice, one that will shape the team into one that’s more cohesive and disciplined, is Ford.

My memory is suspect but we haven't exactly thrived under Ford's captaincy previously, have we? I advocated it some years back. It happened but did not work, I seem to remember. It ought to have done but it didn't. I actually think both Farrell and Ford are decent first lieutenants (assuming they get in the XV). Neither is a top leader of men. Farrell is a shop steward and Ford a foreman. Neither are on-hoof management in a quality captaincy sense. Both have more rugby in them from the neck down than the neck up. I know lots think Ford is the Messiah. I think he is a natural rugby player when he just plays. The overall effect of Y/F/F is best script-led. Take Youngs and Farrell out and give Ford some flair either side of him and things could be different but only if Ford is given the freedom to be instinctive. That excludes the captaincy, IMO.

[Puja]

Daly doesn't have a defence after turning his back on Hardy, not much you can say about that. The balls lost forwards were in contact, were they man and ball or just not looking after the ball enough? The non pass for the try my impression was from where he took the ball he didn't have much of a chance to get it away before being closed down. But even if everything else was okay there's just no getting past turning your back on a try being conceded, he's not going to need telling that's an utter shambles of a play

Outside those failings, some of which might be explainable, he was part of a better attack. And like Farrell and Youngs wasn't really at the heart of our failings yesterday, that's on the forwards for the lack of discipline, and losing a lineout (and losing a shortened lineout with lots of movement and then putting up Wilson against a lock which is just a why moment? dear god why?)

He lost at least two forwards from just fumbling a pass under little pressure - they were definitely not man and ball.

The non-pass was on. It required him to catch and pass relatively smartly and we would've lauded it as good play if he'd succeeded, but it was definitely on and well within his skillset. Unfortunately he caught and tucked under one arm immediately to try to fend and only then looked for the pass, when it needed to go straight away.

Puja

[Puja]

We can fiddle about all we want, but there are a small handful of selection changes mooted that are serious options, and ones that revolve round and round. All irrelevent whilst conceding 13+ penalties a game, most of which are unforced and give sides easy territory and points.

I agree. Most of the changes people propose would need a change in system.

It’s why I, like you it seems, feel like changing the captain and instilling a different attitude would be the best way forward.

While I’m definitely on the Itoje for captain bandwagon... for me the best choice, one that will shape the team into one that’s more cohesive and disciplined, is Ford.

My memory is suspect but we haven't exactly thrived under Ford's captaincy previously, have we? I advocated it some years back. It happened but did not work, I seem to remember. It ought to have done but it didn't. I actually think both Farrell and Ford are decent first lieutenants (assuming they get in the XV). Neither is a top leader of men. Farrell is a shop steward and Ford a foreman. Neither are on-hoof management in a quality captaincy sense. Both have more rugby in them from the neck down than the neck up. I know lots think Ford is the Messiah. I think he is a natural rugby player when he just plays. The overall effect of Y/F/F is best script-led. Take Youngs and Farrell out and give Ford some flair either side of him and things could be different but only if Ford is given the freedom to be instinctive. That excludes the captaincy, IMO.

I don't recall any bad results or downturns under Ford's captaincy? He did a good job in Argentina on the last Lions tour and I don't recall anything bad on the few occasions he's had it before.

Mind, I wouldn't want Ford as captain anyway as I don't like lumping extra responsibility on a 10.

Puja

[Banquo]

possibly one of our issues is highighted by inability to identify leaders. Theres a lack of rugby smarts I'm thinking.

[WaspInWales]

Can Eddie make any major changes to the squad mid-way through the 6N or is he just restricted to replacing injured/unavailable players?

I can't see much changing if he could anyway. He is so stuck in his ways and I can't imagine him admitting to being wrong about selecting the Sarries players over match-fit premiership players who are in good nick.

Also, how many test matches until the RWC starts? It doesn't seem likely we'll see a rash of new blood getting selected. I can imagine the squad including 2 or 3 new players but nothing drastic which is to be expected but this 6N was a massive missed opportunity for new players and it could have put serious pressure on the players who keep getting selected on reputation.

[morepork]

You need a new cat pain.

[Which Tyler]

Can Eddie make any major changes to the squad mid-way through the 6N or is he just restricted to replacing injured/unavailable players?

I can't see much changing if he could anyway. He is so stuck in his ways and I can't imagine him admitting to being wrong about selecting the Sarries players over match-fit premiership players who are in good nick.

Also, how many test matches until the RWC starts? It doesn't seem likely we'll see a rash of new blood getting selected. I can imagine the squad including 2 or 3 new players but nothing drastic which is to be expected but this 6N was a massive missed opportunity for new players and it could have put serious pressure on the players who keep getting selected on reputation.

Injuries only; and even then he's limited to the shadow squad if at all possible - all to do with Covid bubbles.

I doubt that he'd make any major changes anyway; it's terrible for morale and cohesion to do that mid-tournament. Fans speculate that he's lost the dressing room as it is, absent any evidence whatsoever - but if you really want to see that happen, start dropping your leaders, or several players mid-tournament.

[Banquo]

Can Eddie make any major changes to the squad mid-way through the 6N or is he just restricted to replacing injured/unavailable players?

I can't see much changing if he could anyway. He is so stuck in his ways and I can't imagine him admitting to being wrong about selecting the Sarries players over match-fit premiership players who are in good nick.

Also, how many test matches until the RWC starts? It doesn't seem likely we'll see a rash of new blood getting selected. I can imagine the squad including 2 or 3 new players but nothing drastic which is to be expected but this 6N was a massive missed opportunity for new players and it could have put serious pressure on the players who keep getting selected on reputation.

Injuries only; and even then he's limited to the shadow squad if at all possible - all to do with Covid bubbles.

I doubt that he'd make any major changes anyway; it's terrible for morale and cohesion to do that mid-tournament. Fans speculate that he's lost the dressing room as it is, absent any evidence whatsoever - but if you really want to see that happen, start dropping your leaders, or several players mid-tournament.

Yep, to me its pretty clear that the 'in' players love Eddie; that maybe smacks of clique, but twas ever thus especially in successful sides (?). You've got to prove yourself in the training environment, which is very like a 'club' thing. Eddie has run the rule over almost everyone the board would suggest deserves a look, and pretty much does it sooner rather than later.....and if he doesn't like something, you are gone, and likely never return.

That paints quite a stark picture, but Eddie runs a tough school. That said. its incredible that he's allowed the discipline issue to reappear. And I think he should trust the guys more on the park and aspire to fully use the talent, even within the 'in' crowd. I do think that Faz is a key blocker and voice in this, but that's more my bias than anything grounded in reality

[Oakboy]

Jones has earned the right to be judged by results. The fact is that results indicate failure currently.

[Banquo]

Jones has earned the right to be judged by results. The fact is that results indicate failure currently.

? every coach esp international, is judged by results.

[Oakboy]

Jones has earned the right to be judged by results. The fact is that results indicate failure currently.

? every coach esp international, is judged by results.

But, whenever criticism of performance, style, gameplan or whatever has come up in the last 5 years the defence of Jones has always been 'judge on results'. My point is that there is nothing else in mitigation. Losing that badly to Scotland and Wales ranks way down in any reasonable expectation measure.