Tigersman wrote:Just from my POV, annoying loss.
But find it hard to be that upset when what cost us the game has been something I have been dying to see from a Tigers side again and that's a nasty side.
These are young players even Wiese is only 25 and reading his background hasn't had a easy path to now.
In time they will hopefully mature, but to have players in the pack 25 or under in Whitcombe, Heyes, Henderson, Martin, Chessum, Liebenberg, Wiese, Reffell all performing to a very high physicality side of things it fills me with hope.
Two events came to mind as soon as I read your post. The first was Back punching somebody on the way off the pitch. Had both been carded? The other was Julian White decking the big boy. Happy days.
Hmmm. I like aggression and I like imposing ourselves physically on the opposition, but it needs to be done with a modicum of control and with the knowledge that there are 5000 television cameras watching nowadays. A nasty side isn't useful when it gives away penalties and yellows. Lawes and Underhill are both nasty, but they do it legally and productively - burying a 10 just about within time for no reason other than to put him off. Right now, we've got shoves and pushes and illegal clearouts, all of which are being caught and, even if they weren't pinged, would be no more than petty bullshit anyway. I don't want them confusing hard and aggressive with cheap and petty.
It's a young and inexperienced team though, as you mentioned, and it's far better than the supine capitulation we saw under O'Connor and Murphy, so hopefully they'll mature into Martin Johnsons rather than Gareth Archers.
Puja
I want a football reference here...sorry. I remember all the pundits talking about Rooney's "aggression" hampering his game, blablahblah. He had 2 or so seasons where he channelled that aggro so utterly perfectly he was exceptional.
That's what's gotta happen, so I also believe showing some aggro, even poorly, is a good sign. It's not like they're being Callum Clark here, they're just being a bit too...naughty.
The collar grab was ‘naughty’, but Wiese has form for nasty stuff from SA that we’ve already seen evidence of here (he’s only just come back from a ban for an ugly - and entirely deliberate - shoulder charge to the head).
I enjoy watching him and I think he’s a very good player, but if I were Borthwick I would definitely be having words with him about his discipline. His actions have directly contributed to Tigers losing two games they probably would have won.
Being ‘hard’ and being a thug are two different things ...
Scrumhead wrote:The collar grab was ‘naughty’, but Wiese has form for nasty stuff from SA that we’ve already seen evidence of here (he’s only just come back from a ban for an ugly - and entirely deliberate - shoulder charge to the head).
I enjoy watching him and I think he’s a very good player, but if I were Borthwick I would definitely be having words with him about his discipline. His actions have directly contributed to Tigers losing two games they probably would have won.
Being ‘hard’ and being a thug are two different things ...
Perhaps, had he collar-grabbed from the front he could be considered 'hard' but doing it from behind drifted towards thuggery? He looks too good a player to be allowed to drift off the rails.
Scrumhead wrote:The collar grab was ‘naughty’, but Wiese has form for nasty stuff from SA that we’ve already seen evidence of here (he’s only just come back from a ban for an ugly - and entirely deliberate - shoulder charge to the head).
I enjoy watching him and I think he’s a very good player, but if I were Borthwick I would definitely be having words with him about his discipline. His actions have directly contributed to Tigers losing two games they probably would have won.
Being ‘hard’ and being a thug are two different things ...
Perhaps, had he collar-grabbed from the front he could be considered 'hard' but doing it from behind drifted towards thuggery? He looks too good a player to be allowed to drift off the rails.
I have little issue with the collar grab. Mercer and Heyes weren't going to stop the pathetic dick swinging shouting match as Pearce was showing all the control over the incident of the parent of a feral toddler playground who's running round eating mud and throwing stones at the other children. The penalty against Tigers was correct but it should have been against Heyes and immediately after the shove with a warning then to Mercer that it'd be reversed if he didn't stop the "I'm 'ard act", the incident would have de-escalated in a fraction of the time.
I don't think Weise is a dirty player I just don't think he's very bright. It's a bit like the Incredible Hulk, "Weise SMASH", is the only thing running around up top. Which does make him recklessly dangerous. He's an absolute unit and as seen with the casual way he pulled away Mercer very strong. Borthwick's job is to polish that rough diamond and get him to start thinking on the pitch rather than just rampaging around hitting things. At the minute he's just a blunt object and with refinement he could be so much more. If he's doesn't start using the top two inches more he'll collect more bans because he's far too physical in the at he plays and he's got to channel that. As seen with other more brutal Tigers forwards who adapted to the increase in cameras at grounds it's all about presenting the right picture. The other issue is that de Bruin was livid with the ref, might suggest that pulling players apart like that is fine in SA and that Borthwick might just want to talk about the refs expectations in Prem.
I do wish refs would cut down on this niggly cheap crap in games. Heyes wasn't even spoken to and should have been given the dressing down for the petulant push after the whistle, completely unnecessary and started the entire thing.
Scrumhead wrote:The collar grab was ‘naughty’, but Wiese has form for nasty stuff from SA that we’ve already seen evidence of here (he’s only just come back from a ban for an ugly - and entirely deliberate - shoulder charge to the head).
I enjoy watching him and I think he’s a very good player, but if I were Borthwick I would definitely be having words with him about his discipline. His actions have directly contributed to Tigers losing two games they probably would have won.
Being ‘hard’ and being a thug are two different things ...
Perhaps, had he collar-grabbed from the front he could be considered 'hard' but doing it from behind drifted towards thuggery? He looks too good a player to be allowed to drift off the rails.
I have little issue with the collar grab. Mercer and Heyes weren't going to stop the pathetic dick swinging shouting match as Pearce was showing all the control over the incident of the parent of a feral toddler playground who's running round eating mud and throwing stones at the other children. The penalty against Tigers was correct but it should have been against Heyes and immediately after the shove with a warning then to Mercer that it'd be reversed if he didn't stop the "I'm 'ard act", the incident would have de-escalated in a fraction of the time.
I don't think Weise is a dirty player I just don't think he's very bright. It's a bit like the Incredible Hulk, "Weise SMASH", is the only thing running around up top. Which does make him recklessly dangerous. He's an absolute unit and as seen with the casual way he pulled away Mercer very strong. Borthwick's job is to polish that rough diamond and get him to start thinking on the pitch rather than just rampaging around hitting things. At the minute he's just a blunt object and with refinement he could be so much more. If he's doesn't start using the top two inches more he'll collect more bans because he's far too physical in the at he plays and he's got to channel that. As seen with other more brutal Tigers forwards who adapted to the increase in cameras at grounds it's all about presenting the right picture. The other issue is that de Bruin was livid with the ref, might suggest that pulling players apart like that is fine in SA and that Borthwick might just want to talk about the refs expectations in Prem.
I do wish refs would cut down on this niggly cheap crap in games. Heyes wasn't even spoken to and should have been given the dressing down for the petulant push after the whistle, completely unnecessary and started the entire thing.
Dallaglio is a crap pundit but I always used to admire his confrontational tactics - keeping his arms by his sides, grinning and sticking his chin out to invite someone to get sent off.
I suppose rugby will always have confrontation as long as ruck, maul and scrum pertain. After all, they are an integral part of the game - sort of legalised pissing contests with lots of skill thrown in.
As for the refs, some simply have more presence than others I suggest.
Oakboy wrote:
Perhaps, had he collar-grabbed from the front he could be considered 'hard' but doing it from behind drifted towards thuggery? He looks too good a player to be allowed to drift off the rails.
I have little issue with the collar grab. Mercer and Heyes weren't going to stop the pathetic dick swinging shouting match as Pearce was showing all the control over the incident of the parent of a feral toddler playground who's running round eating mud and throwing stones at the other children. The penalty against Tigers was correct but it should have been against Heyes and immediately after the shove with a warning then to Mercer that it'd be reversed if he didn't stop the "I'm 'ard act", the incident would have de-escalated in a fraction of the time.
I don't think Weise is a dirty player I just don't think he's very bright. It's a bit like the Incredible Hulk, "Weise SMASH", is the only thing running around up top. Which does make him recklessly dangerous. He's an absolute unit and as seen with the casual way he pulled away Mercer very strong. Borthwick's job is to polish that rough diamond and get him to start thinking on the pitch rather than just rampaging around hitting things. At the minute he's just a blunt object and with refinement he could be so much more. If he's doesn't start using the top two inches more he'll collect more bans because he's far too physical in the at he plays and he's got to channel that. As seen with other more brutal Tigers forwards who adapted to the increase in cameras at grounds it's all about presenting the right picture. The other issue is that de Bruin was livid with the ref, might suggest that pulling players apart like that is fine in SA and that Borthwick might just want to talk about the refs expectations in Prem.
I do wish refs would cut down on this niggly cheap crap in games. Heyes wasn't even spoken to and should have been given the dressing down for the petulant push after the whistle, completely unnecessary and started the entire thing.
Dallaglio is a crap pundit but I always used to admire his confrontational tactics - keeping his arms by his sides, grinning and sticking his chin out to invite someone to get sent off.
I suppose rugby will always have confrontation as long as ruck, maul and scrum pertain. After all, they are an integral part of the game - sort of legalised pissing contests with lots of skill thrown in.
As for the refs, some simply have more presence than others I suggest.
All true. In the modern game it's all about making it look like the other guys started the confrontation though, Ellis Genge is actually quite good at this. Heyes shove on Mercer was just to obvious, a sneaky pat on the head and "thanks for that bud" may have been the better option.
FKAS wrote:
I have little issue with the collar grab. Mercer and Heyes weren't going to stop the pathetic dick swinging shouting match as Pearce was showing all the control over the incident of the parent of a feral toddler playground who's running round eating mud and throwing stones at the other children. The penalty against Tigers was correct but it should have been against Heyes and immediately after the shove with a warning then to Mercer that it'd be reversed if he didn't stop the "I'm 'ard act", the incident would have de-escalated in a fraction of the time.
I don't think Weise is a dirty player I just don't think he's very bright. It's a bit like the Incredible Hulk, "Weise SMASH", is the only thing running around up top. Which does make him recklessly dangerous. He's an absolute unit and as seen with the casual way he pulled away Mercer very strong. Borthwick's job is to polish that rough diamond and get him to start thinking on the pitch rather than just rampaging around hitting things. At the minute he's just a blunt object and with refinement he could be so much more. If he's doesn't start using the top two inches more he'll collect more bans because he's far too physical in the at he plays and he's got to channel that. As seen with other more brutal Tigers forwards who adapted to the increase in cameras at grounds it's all about presenting the right picture. The other issue is that de Bruin was livid with the ref, might suggest that pulling players apart like that is fine in SA and that Borthwick might just want to talk about the refs expectations in Prem.
I do wish refs would cut down on this niggly cheap crap in games. Heyes wasn't even spoken to and should have been given the dressing down for the petulant push after the whistle, completely unnecessary and started the entire thing.
Dallaglio is a crap pundit but I always used to admire his confrontational tactics - keeping his arms by his sides, grinning and sticking his chin out to invite someone to get sent off.
I suppose rugby will always have confrontation as long as ruck, maul and scrum pertain. After all, they are an integral part of the game - sort of legalised pissing contests with lots of skill thrown in.
As for the refs, some simply have more presence than others I suggest.
All true. In the modern game it's all about making it look like the other guys started the confrontation though, Ellis Genge is actually quite good at this. Heyes shove on Mercer was just to obvious, a sneaky pat on the head and "thanks for that bud" may have been the better option.
I think Sinckler's the absolute master right now. Always involved in confrontations and winding people up, but he's always got a lid on himself and is never the one getting penalised for it.
Oakboy wrote:
Dallaglio is a crap pundit but I always used to admire his confrontational tactics - keeping his arms by his sides, grinning and sticking his chin out to invite someone to get sent off.
I suppose rugby will always have confrontation as long as ruck, maul and scrum pertain. After all, they are an integral part of the game - sort of legalised pissing contests with lots of skill thrown in.
As for the refs, some simply have more presence than others I suggest.
All true. In the modern game it's all about making it look like the other guys started the confrontation though, Ellis Genge is actually quite good at this. Heyes shove on Mercer was just to obvious, a sneaky pat on the head and "thanks for that bud" may have been the better option.
I think Sinckler's the absolute master right now. Always involved in confrontations and winding people up, but he's always got a lid on himself and is never the one getting penalised for it.
