What the Lions means for England

[fivepointer]

These games are all about building depth, arent they? We should be looking at 3rd/4th choices in some positions, and we should be taking a close look at a good youngster who may be 1 or 2 years away from becoming a full regular international.

[Digby]

I disagree. After losing Redpath and Williams recently despite them being part of our age grade set up and even in our wider England squad, I think we need to make opportunities to capture promising players count.

I’m not talking about capturing players just because ...

I genuinely believe Rodd, Heyes, Randall and Odogwu are all good enough and young enough to be England internationals. Why lose them to other nations who have played little, or in most cases, no part in their development?

I would agree we missed out on Redpath, a player though who'd have warranted interest in the full EPS whilst all players were available. Whereas if we're arguing who to select in a minor interest game against the local Dog and Duck XIV (Colin couldn't make it) then maybe we're not looking at the same standard of player

If those players are good enough (and can be bothered, yes we're looking at you Odogwu) then pick 'em for the full side. If they're not playing seniors rugby with players missing for the Lions and just for rest whilst we're up for some fixtures against a rank bad side and a worse one in Canada they're ranked somewhere outside the top 40 players, if they don't think they can bridge that gap I'm not sold they can either

Thoroughly disagree. Because of our depth of playing resources and the occasional thinness of that of our Celtic neighbours, there are many occasions where a player is not yet suitable for England but the Celts will have them away on general principles. Looking at this current tour, Bevan Rodd is an excellent example - he's 20 years old, this is his breakthrough season, and even with the Lions away, he is behind Genge, Obano, and probably West. That doesn't mean we should chuck him out on the scrapheap of "Never will be" - he's 20 years old and could develop in any direction! However, if we don't pick him, then the Scots will certainly nick him.

Puja

If the Scots pick him then fair enough.

We should be picking people for England because they're the best options available, part of which includes the idea they can develop, but we don't need to be remotely as cynical as saying we're going to pick people in a meaningless game simply to curtail their options down the line when we might never have further interest in them.

Also, even if I liked the idea of picking people just so others can't it's going to have issues, the players will notice they face exclusion from test rugby for the possibility of one meaningless cap and they will react to that. And there's a decent chance the IRB will react to 1 cap non wonders, perhaps even less than 5 cap non wonder players, though in the first instance that's likely to make players available for players outside tier 1, and that doesn't apply to Scotland based on which event they played in 100 years ago

If we like a player engage with them and try to present a positive path forwards, if we cannot do that because other resources/players are rated too far ahead and people want to develop their opportunities elsewhere so be it. But if we're trying just trying to be a bunch of negative arseholes

[Oakboy]

I find it difficult to assess levels with this sort of tour. For example, might it be fair to suggest that some (most?) Premiership clubs would beat US and Canada? So, is it only the group experience and the influence of Jones and his coaching crew that players get?

Overall, surely the most important consideration for Jones in any tour context is to try to establish whether any young aspirant (Smith, say) has the capacity to take the 1st XV's ceiling beyond that of the current choices. With that aim in mind, how much notice will he take of Lions' performances? If Farrell were to have a nightmare (unlikely) would it have any relative value to Smith, say, against US?

Or, as has been suggested can this tour only give basic consideration to back-up rankings? In that regard, who will be tour captain? Ewels is getting mentions in the press but I don't even see him as of international playing quality.

[Scrumhead]

TBH, if Ewels is being mooted as a tour captain it might suggest Ford is being rested which is a good thing IMO, as it hopefully means Smith/Simmonds will be the 10s.

Ewels would be captain by virtue of the fact that he regularly does the job at club level and would probably be one of the most experienced test players if it is the experimental group we’re hoping for.

He’s also pretty much a certainty to be picked given we have 5 front line locks unavailable.

I think he’s fine. He’s been better than Hill so far (who is somehow a Lion!) and certainly no worse than the majority of locks playing for the other home nations.

[Puja]

I find it difficult to assess levels with this sort of tour. For example, might it be fair to suggest that some (most?) Premiership clubs would beat US and Canada? So, is it only the group experience and the influence of Jones and his coaching crew that players get?

Overall, surely the most important consideration for Jones in any tour context is to try to establish whether any young aspirant (Smith, say) has the capacity to take the 1st XV's ceiling beyond that of the current choices. With that aim in mind, how much notice will he take of Lions' performances? If Farrell were to have a nightmare (unlikely) would it have any relative value to Smith, say, against US?

Or, as has been suggested can this tour only give basic consideration to back-up rankings? In that regard, who will be tour captain? Ewels is getting mentions in the press but I don't even see him as of international playing quality.

Most Prem sides would beat Canada - they're a mess. USA it depends on who they have available and how much prep time they're going to have, but I'd say at their best they're just under Italy level right now.

Puja

[Oakboy]

TBH, if Ewels is being mooted as a tour captain it might suggest Ford is being rested which is a good thing IMO, as it hopefully means Smith/Simmonds will be the 10s.

Ewels would be captain by virtue of the fact that he regularly does the job at club level and would probably be one of the most experienced test players if it is the experimental group we’re hoping for.

He’s also pretty much a certainty to be picked given we have 5 front line locks unavailable.

I think he’s fine. He’s been better than Hill so far (who is somehow a Lion!) and certainly no worse than the majority of locks playing for the other home nations.

Fair enough. All this is just opinion. WT does not rate Ewels's leadership qualities for Bath. Baxter uses Hill for 80 far more often than Gray. Gatland rates Hill (I saw no mention ever of Ewels.) Oddly enough, I did wonder if Attwood might go to SA. I'd still have him way ahead of Ewels for a one-off match tomorrow.

[fivepointer]

Ewels is an obvious candidate. If Ford and Youngs are rested (as i hope they are), then frankly there arent that many options.
Ewels does captain at club level and is a cert for squad selection. He's a dependable squad player and maybe being captain would help him raise his game.

[Scrumhead]

I think Hill has the potential to be a lot better than Ewels, but he definitely hasn’t shown it in his England appearances so far. His Lions call-up ahead of Ryan, Gray and even Cummings is plain odd.

I would also have Attwood ahead of both for a one-off game tomorrow but we’re talking about real fixtures.

[Scrumhead]

Ewels is an obvious candidate. If Ford and Youngs are rested (as i hope they are), then frankly there arent that many options.
Ewels does captain at club level and is a cert for squad selection. He's a dependable squad player and maybe being captain would help him raise his game.

Agreed. The only other candidates with any experience of captaining a club side are Joe Simmonds and Dombrandt, but neither are a certainty to be picked.

Robson may have captained Wasps but I don’t really see him as an influential leader.

[fivepointer]

Plus Ewels will be free after the Premierships final round of games on 12 June as Bath wont make the play offs.

The Prem final is on 26 June, so that will have an impact on who runs out for the A team a day later.

[Mikey Brown]

Is anyone likely to take a lock spot ahead of Ribbans/Ewels anyway?

He may be relatively unexciting (still think he's been better than Hill at international level so far) but in a team of relative newbies I'm perfectly happy with him, and think he'd go well with Ribbans.

Who else is captaining their side? Ted Hill? Dunn? Dombrandt? Am I imagining that Robson has captained Wasps once or twice?

[Scrumhead]

I knew I missed someone obvious ... Ted Hill isn’t a bad shout as a regular club captain although I think he’s got a tough job competing for the 6 jersey with Martin seemingly preferred and Barbeary likely to be an option.

Mark Wilson would be another good choice, but as much as I rate him, I’d rather we use the opportunity to look at younger, high potential options at 6 and 8.

Isiekwe is the other option at lock I’d assume? He’s been mostly playing at 6 for Saints but it’s not like he’s unfamiliar with the second row and even if he’s rusty, I imagine he will be perfectly fine against USA and Canada.

[Gloskarlos]

I'd chuck Ludlow into the captaincy mix too. Been very impressed with him of late. We do have a surfeit of 6,7,8 players, but he's topped the tackling charts for weeks now, his on field management with refs is actually very good and giving away far fewer daft pens and cards than previous seasons.

[Raggs]

I'd chuck Ludlow into the captaincy mix too. Been very impressed with him of late. We do have a surfeit of 6,7,8 players, but he's topped the tackling charts for weeks now, his on field management with refs is actually very good and giving away far fewer daft pens and cards than previous seasons.

He's never really struck me as international quality. Absolutely solid prem, but I cannot see an international future for him.

[Gloskarlos]

I'd chuck Ludlow into the captaincy mix too. Been very impressed with him of late. We do have a surfeit of 6,7,8 players, but he's topped the tackling charts for weeks now, his on field management with refs is actually very good and giving away far fewer daft pens and cards than previous seasons.

He's never really struck me as international quality. Absolutely solid prem, but I cannot see an international future for him.

Yes, I get that, and don't get me wrong i'm not saying he's a full cap starter, but I think Saxons/A level is absolutely where he is right now. According to some internal sources he is on Eddie's radar and not far away (as much as that means I concede)

[Raggs]

I'd chuck Ludlow into the captaincy mix too. Been very impressed with him of late. We do have a surfeit of 6,7,8 players, but he's topped the tackling charts for weeks now, his on field management with refs is actually very good and giving away far fewer daft pens and cards than previous seasons.

He's never really struck me as international quality. Absolutely solid prem, but I cannot see an international future for him.

Yes, I get that, and don't get me wrong i'm not saying he's a full cap starter, but I think Saxons/A level is absolutely where he is right now. According to some internal sources he is on Eddie's radar and not far away (as much as that means I concede)

Maybe. I just think he's 26, which whilst it's not over the hill, it's definitely a stage where I'd have expected to see more from him. Though Wilson came in late(ish) as well too.

Just strikes me that there's numerous backrow youngsters who have just as much claim to a Saxons cap, but with a few more years to develop in. Like Martin, Hill, Willis jnr, Dombrandt etc etc.

Ewels is the obvious captaincy candidate for me. Someone who is always around the actual squad, but only called up when we're missing too many, with a lot of captaincy experience too.

[Scrumhead]

I'd chuck Ludlow into the captaincy mix too. Been very impressed with him of late. We do have a surfeit of 6,7,8 players, but he's topped the tackling charts for weeks now, his on field management with refs is actually very good and giving away far fewer daft pens and cards than previous seasons.

He's never really struck me as international quality. Absolutely solid prem, but I cannot see an international future for him.

Yes, I get that, and don't get me wrong i'm not saying he's a full cap starter, but I think Saxons/A level is absolutely where he is right now. According to some internal sources he is on Eddie's radar and not far away (as much as that means I concede)

I agree. Good player, but I can’t see him ever breaking in to the full England side so I’d probably be more inclined to pick younger players who might be able to do that. For example, at 6 there’s Hill, Martin or possibly Barbeary, all of whom I’d pick before Ludlow. At 7, there’s Ben Curry (if fit) and I’d have also preferred Will Evans who sadly won’t be available.

[Oakboy]

I still see Isiekwe as a genuine contender at 6 - maybe ahead of Hill and Martin.

[Raggs]

I still see Isiekwe as a genuine contender at 6 - maybe ahead of Hill and Martin.

Isiekwe should definitely be involved, think he's going to be more use at lock though, he's a big old lump and could be useful pushing.

[Oakboy]

I still see Isiekwe as a genuine contender at 6 - maybe ahead of Hill and Martin.

Isiekwe should definitely be involved, think he's going to be more use at lock though, he's a big old lump and could be useful pushing.

I just like having a genuine line-out option at 6. It's also where I like grunt with a preference for pace at 8 to break from the back of the scrum.

[Scrumhead]

I rate Isiekwe and I think he’s equally good at 6 or at lock. However, if I were him I’d be looking at our second row options and their ages and thinking that I’d have a far better chance of cementing my place there.

When he’s back at Saracens, if he focuses on lock, he’d be partnering with Itoje week-in, week-out. That would be great for him and would make him a far more attractive option for England.

If he focuses on 6, he’s got higher quality, younger competition - many of whom are at least as good, if not better.

[Oakboy]

I rate Isiekwe and I think he’s equally good at 6 or at lock. However, if I were him I’d be looking at our second row options and their ages and thinking that I’d have a far better chance of cementing my place there.

When he’s back at Saracens, if he focuses on lock, he’d be partnering with Itoje week-in, week-out. That would be great for him and would make him a far more attractive option for England.

If he focuses on 6, he’s got higher quality, younger competition - many of whom are at least as good, if not better.

Can't argue wiith that. Mind you, Gatland has spoken about matching the SA lineout with a big 6. It might be amusing if, for example, a successful back row of, say, Lawes, Curry and Simmonds comes home.

[Raggs]

I rate Isiekwe and I think he’s equally good at 6 or at lock. However, if I were him I’d be looking at our second row options and their ages and thinking that I’d have a far better chance of cementing my place there.

When he’s back at Saracens, if he focuses on lock, he’d be partnering with Itoje week-in, week-out. That would be great for him and would make him a far more attractive option for England.

If he focuses on 6, he’s got higher quality, younger competition - many of whom are at least as good, if not better.

Can't argue wiith that. Mind you, Gatland has spoken about matching the SA lineout with a big 6. It might be amusing if, for example, a successful back row of, say, Lawes, Curry and Simmonds comes home.

If that backrow plays and beats the boks at the breakdown, I'll not comment online on another England game for a year.

[Banquo]

I still see Isiekwe as a genuine contender at 6 - maybe ahead of Hill and Martin.

Isiekwe should definitely be involved, think he's going to be more use at lock though, he's a big old lump and could be useful pushing.

I think he's not quite up to either role at the next level. Good player tho.

[Scrumhead]

I’d like to give him the opportunity to show whether he is or not.

He’s not as big as Hill, but he’s a better rugby player and a better athlete IMO.

If he wants to play test rugby, I really think it needs to be at lock though. I just can’t see him ever being a first choice as a 6, whereas he definitely could be at lock.