RugbyRebels

Peej wrote:Giving Smith a fully fit and firing Manu to play with will be fun, if he's allowed to set the tempo and game plan and Farrell doesn't dictate everything.

Hopefully the game plan is lots of miss passes from 10 to 13 directly.

Shiny wrote:At least he seems to have gotten over his Daly man crush.

Daly's out until around Christmas isn't he?

Anyone else feeling the slight concern we're going to end up playing Farrell and Atkinson outside of Smith? Ah an electric young flyhalf, let's give him the slowest centre pairing in a decade. At least Atkinson will run a line for him.

McCall must be doing a happy dance. His squad will barely be touched in the next couple of weeks. Chalk up a few more wins whilst others are missing players and Sarries will be in a good place league wise.

Puja wrote: Dolly's not got an earthly chance of getting in the EPS though.

Puja

Told you so …

I'd be disappointed but not surprised if Smith only starts against Tonga and if Farrell plays all 80 minutes in all the games at 10 or 12.

Not sure about that, personally. Unusually for an England squad I look at the tight five and outside of loosehead it looks really thin, especially if Cowan-Dickie and Itoje have to pull out; I suspect George will get recalled if LCD's injury proves serious. Reckon Lynagh will get brought in too if Watson's scan shows anything troubling, but difficult to see where a replacement for Maro comes from. Personally I really like Atkinson and I think he'd be a good pick if Smith is going to be the man at 10. The thought of poor old Marcus having to play with Youngs at 9 and Faz outside him brings tears of frustration to my eyes though - if you're genuine about him being the fly half to take you to the World Cup then give him a team that will bring the best out of him, not nullify his strengths (FWIW I still absolutely think there's a place for Farrell in an England match day squad, but possibly as the steely authority figure that comes off the bench to help close out a game rather than a key figure in orchestrating the attack.)

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

Shiny wrote:At least he seems to have gotten over his Daly man crush.

Still injured I think

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote: Dolly's not got an earthly chance of getting in the EPS though.

Puja

Told you so …

You did indeed! Astute, if still somewhat perplexing, prediction.

Puja

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote: Dolly's not got an earthly chance of getting in the EPS though.

Puja

Told you so …

Let’s not start doing this* as the board will be 90% made up of posts reminding people what they got wrong.

*absolutely, 100% nothing do with me saying Jones would be more impressed by TWillis than SSimmonds….

Wouldn't blame Ford if he buggered off to Japan. Seems really harsh.

fivepointer wrote:

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

Eddie likes Davison as a potential RWC squad member as he can prop either side of the scrum. They tied Heyes to England over the summer so Wales or Ireland can no longer nab him so maybe it's best to let him carry on getting minutes under the belt for Leicester is the thinking? I thought the summer actually represented a bit of a sea change on that front with the captures of Heyes, Kelly and Randall and that we'd see Rodd and Lynagh get minutes v Tonga, but Eddie's obviously still not learned anything from the Redpath Incident as it shall henceforth be known...

Oakboy wrote:It would be fascinating to know what influence the new coaches had on selection. Was a style of play change a factor? Etc.

But that will all be irrelevant if Farrell stays at 12 because he cannot play a high-tempo, spontaneous game, or can he really be the hard running 12 to suck in defenders to create space

Peej wrote:Oh good, Sarries with a point to prove coming up for Wasps this weekend......

There are some real oddities in there. Chick? Davison? Really? Two hookers when one of them went off with an injury at the weekend?

So at a guess:

1. Sinck
2. LCD (if not broken)
3. Genge
4. Lawes
5. Itoje
6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. Youngs (FFS)
10. Smith
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Manu
14. Radwan
15. Steward

Wow

You're not thinking bad enough. It'll be Ewels/Hill at 5, Lawes at 6 and TCurry at 8 - guaranteed.

Puja


ETA. Also, on a pedantic note, you've got your prop numbering the wrong way around.

SDHoneymonster wrote:

fivepointer wrote:

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

Eddie likes Davison as a potential RWC squad member as he can prop either side of the scrum. They tied Heyes to England over the summer so Wales or Ireland can no longer nab him so maybe it's best to let him carry on getting minutes under the belt for Leicester is the thinking? I thought the summer actually represented a bit of a sea change on that front with the captures of Heyes, Kelly and Randall and that we'd see Rodd and Lynagh get minutes v Tonga, but Eddie's obviously still not learned anything from the Redpath Incident as it shall henceforth be known...

Davison might theoretically be able to play both sides, but can he do it to a quality where we wouldn't be bricking it every time we had a scrum? Wasn't he the guy who was forced onto the wrong side in the European Cup a couple of years back and just got shunted backwards continually?

Puja

fivepointer wrote:

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

All the above.

It comes to something when a back catalogue of three matches gets you, ie Dolly, in to the England squad.

Keeping Farrell over Ford just angers me.

No idea why we have three no8s and even less of an idea why we have three no9s when Jones has said on numerous occasions that carrying more than two is pointless.

Mellsblue wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Puja wrote: Dolly's not got an earthly chance of getting in the EPS though.

Puja

Told you so …

Let’s not start doing this* as the board will be 90% made up of posts reminding people what they got wrong.

*absolutely, 100% nothing do with me saying Jones would be more impressed by TWillis than SSimmonds….

Don't worry. I'll usually lead the 'got it wrong' table. A comment on the BBC compared Jones to Solksjaer. Harsh.

Puja wrote:
ETA. Also, on a pedantic note, you've got your prop numbering the wrong way around.

I always do this. In my defence, it's hard to see the numbers with all the cuddling and shoving from where I'm normally exchanging small talk and pleasantries with the opposition in the 13 channel or wider

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:

fivepointer wrote:
Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

Eddie likes Davison as a potential RWC squad member as he can prop either side of the scrum. They tied Heyes to England over the summer so Wales or Ireland can no longer nab him so maybe it's best to let him carry on getting minutes under the belt for Leicester is the thinking? I thought the summer actually represented a bit of a sea change on that front with the captures of Heyes, Kelly and Randall and that we'd see Rodd and Lynagh get minutes v Tonga, but Eddie's obviously still not learned anything from the Redpath Incident as it shall henceforth be known...

Davison might theoretically be able to play both sides, but can he do it to a quality where we wouldn't be bricking it every time we had a scrum? Wasn't he the guy who was forced onto the wrong side in the European Cup a couple of years back and just got shunted backwards continually?

Puja

Has anyone been able to do this even competently since Matt Stevens?

Puja wrote:

Peej wrote:Oh good, Sarries with a point to prove coming up for Wasps this weekend......

There are some real oddities in there. Chick? Davison? Really? Two hookers when one of them went off with an injury at the weekend?

So at a guess:

1. Sinck
2. LCD (if not broken)
3. Genge
4. Lawes
5. Itoje
6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. Youngs (FFS)
10. Smith
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Manu
14. Radwan
15. Steward

Wow

You're not thinking bad enough. It'll be Ewels/Hill at 5, Lawes at 6 and TCurry at 8 - guaranteed.

Puja


ETA. Also, on a pedantic note, you've got your prop numbering the wrong way around.

Now all I can imagine is:
4. Ewels
5. Hill
6. Lawes
if Itoje isn’t available….. and I want to cry. As if Farrell > Ford isn’t depressing enough.
This is the most deflated I’ve felt about an England squad in a very long time. I can’t even get excited about Atkinson making the cut.

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:
Told you so …

Let’s not start doing this* as the board will be 90% made up of posts reminding people what they got wrong.

*absolutely, 100% nothing do with me saying Jones would be more impressed by TWillis than SSimmonds….

Don't worry. I'll usually lead the 'got it wrong' table. A comment on the BBC compared Jones to Solksjaer. Harsh.

Poor old Ole.

Mellsblue wrote:

fivepointer wrote:

Puja wrote:Some of that makes aggressively little sense and smacks of Jones changing things because he said he'd change things. Why do we need B&I Lion and experienced test match player Jamie George when we have Newcastle and Leicester's reserve hookers? Is Atkinson really going to play in the RWC? Why was Ludlow the captain in the summer and behind Chick and Martin now?

I'm happy that Quirke's there and we have moved on from Robson. Aside from that, I'm mostly confused.

Puja

Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

All the above.

It comes to something when a back catalogue of three matches gets you, ie Dolly, in to the England squad.

Keeping Farrell over Ford just angers me.

No idea why we have three no8s and even less of an idea why we have three no9s when Jones has said on numerous occasions that carrying more than two is pointless.

Can really see in this squad the areas Jones has neglected to build proper depth over the years - he's stuffed it full of no.8s, two rookie scrum halves after continually forgoing the opportunity to give quality options not called Youngs or Care a proper run and players who can play at full back. There's an element of 'ah bugger it, you'll do' to it in places.

Danno wrote:It gets weirder and weirder the more you look at it

This.

Puja wrote:

SDHoneymonster wrote:

fivepointer wrote:
Me too.

Given the shortage of top class hookers, retaining George would have made sense. Dolly as 3rd choice strikes me a promotion that isnt really deserved.

The Ludlow elevation I thought was a bit odd in the summer. Now he is discarded altogether. Really WTF was that all about?

More WTF with Davison getting in ahead of Heyes. That really makes absolutely no sense.

Atkinson is a bloody good player but this has surely come too late. Meantime players we have invested time and effort in like Lawrence and Marchant are overlooked.

I rate Freeman highly but do we need to have another back 3 player in the squad?

And George Ford has been seriously badly done to. He's a class player who still has a lot to offer.

Eddie likes Davison as a potential RWC squad member as he can prop either side of the scrum. They tied Heyes to England over the summer so Wales or Ireland can no longer nab him so maybe it's best to let him carry on getting minutes under the belt for Leicester is the thinking? I thought the summer actually represented a bit of a sea change on that front with the captures of Heyes, Kelly and Randall and that we'd see Rodd and Lynagh get minutes v Tonga, but Eddie's obviously still not learned anything from the Redpath Incident as it shall henceforth be known...

Davison might theoretically be able to play both sides, but can he do it to a quality where we wouldn't be bricking it every time we had a scrum? Wasn't he the guy who was forced onto the wrong side in the European Cup a couple of years back and just got shunted backwards continually?

Puja

Hey, I didn't say it was good thinking! Jones has definitely made mention of his ability to play on both sides, so maybe he's hoping Proudfoot and Cockerill will whip him into shape.

Peej wrote:

Oakboy wrote:It would be fascinating to know what influence the new coaches had on selection. Was a style of play change a factor? Etc.

But that will all be irrelevant if Farrell stays at 12 because he cannot play a high-tempo, spontaneous game, or can he really be the hard running 12 to suck in defenders to create space

A comment above suggests Farrell should be used as a nuggety old pro to close the game out from the bench. I see some merit in that and his ability to do a job at 12 gives him the squad place ahead of Ford - especially with Tuilagi's tendency to get injured. So far, it is the only explanation that makes sense.