RugbyRebels

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Agree when Benny started I think he'd played some sevens and was a really creative player. He worked with Dupuy a lot to sort his kicking out and used to be good off the tee. The more he played internationally the more their seemed to be an onus on his tactical game. With Tigers playing woefully for years that's the game he went to for us because that's all was on offer. Now we've got more running threat I'm hoping he'll get more license to revert back. Clearly all the skills are still there.

Interesting to hear from Borthwick that Youngs came into pre season wanting to up the intensity in his training to be fitter and faster for this season.

Suspect that's the train on word from Eddie as per the previous 6N. IMO passing, passing and more passing would also be on the list...

I suspect it's more Ben being self aware enough to know the pressure on his shirt is increasing and having had a summer off with the family was ready to come back in and go for it. He may have wanted something to take his mind off the home life as well as with a new baby and his sister in law's illness they'd have been a lot of things away from the game and a distraction may have helped.

FKAS wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:Agree when Benny started I think he'd played some sevens and was a really creative player. He worked with Dupuy a lot to sort his kicking out and used to be good off the tee. The more he played internationally the more their seemed to be an onus on his tactical game. With Tigers playing woefully for years that's the game he went to for us because that's all was on offer. Now we've got more running threat I'm hoping he'll get more license to revert back. Clearly all the skills are still there.

Interesting to hear from Borthwick that Youngs came into pre season wanting to up the intensity in his training to be fitter and faster for this season.

Suspect that's the train on word from Eddie as per the previous 6N. IMO passing, passing and more passing would also be on the list...

I suspect it's more Ben being self aware enough to know the pressure on his shirt is increasing and having had a summer off with the family was ready to come back in and go for it. He may have wanted something to take his mind off the home life as well as with a new baby and his sister in law's illness they'd have been a lot of things away from the game and a distraction may have helped.

fair. Both guessing, I guess

Youngs had a very good game and fair play to him. But I would not agree with those who think he is underrated. He has not been outstanding for a long time and yet is first choice SH for England. Top players are marked out by consistency and he is far from consistent. He might well have a lot of inherent talent but he has not been showing too much of it over the past few seasons. Even average players may have the odd blinder every now and again. Hope he can keep it up for the rest of the season.

Spiffy wrote:Youngs had a very good game and fair play to him. But I would not agree with those who think he is underrated. He has not been outstanding for a long time and yet is first choice SH for England. Top players are marked out by consistency and he is far from consistent. He might well have a lot of inherent talent but he has not been showing too much of it over the past few seasons. Even average players may have the odd blinder every now and again. Hope he can keep it up for the rest of the season.

My biggest thought during that match was "why the fuck don't you play like this in an England shirt?", despite being a frustrated Quins fan

Spiffy wrote:Youngs had a very good game and fair play to him. But I would not agree with those who think he is underrated. He has not been outstanding for a long time and yet is first choice SH for England. Top players are marked out by consistency and he is far from consistent. He might well have a lot of inherent talent but he has not been showing too much of it over the past few seasons. Even average players may have the odd blinder every now and again. Hope he can keep it up for the rest of the season.

who has said he's underrated? Unsure how anyone with 112 intl caps can be.

Danno wrote:

Spiffy wrote:Youngs had a very good game and fair play to him. But I would not agree with those who think he is underrated. He has not been outstanding for a long time and yet is first choice SH for England. Top players are marked out by consistency and he is far from consistent. He might well have a lot of inherent talent but he has not been showing too much of it over the past few seasons. Even average players may have the odd blinder every now and again. Hope he can keep it up for the rest of the season.

My biggest thought during that match was "why the fuck don't you play like this in an England shirt?", despite being a frustrated Quins fan

In recent years he's tended to play far better for England than Tigers. I think he owes us a few more of those type of performances.

We did see him looking to play more ball in hand in the Autumn so hopefully it's a shift in what's been asked of him and club and country. Now if the players around him start anticipating those runs better then happy days.

With Youngs, I see similarities with Ford, in so far as it is not what they CAN do but what they actually do. Coaching has influence obviously. Both, regularly, kick too much. I suspect that is what comes most naturally to them now, unfortunately. Openings only get seen if the player is looking for them.

I think ‘coaching has influence’ is underplaying it a bit.

Mikey Brown wrote:I think ‘coaching has influence’ is underplaying it a bit.

Fair enough. If you were starting now as England's coach, based on the evidence, would you find it easier to mould new 'less coached' 9/10 combinations to your ways? Jones has already gone that way with Smith ahead of Ford. Will Youngs keep his shirt through to the RWC?

Of course, Ford to Sale opens up coaching and combination intrigue.

I knock both players a lot but I was a big Youngs fan when he started for his variety and bite. It has just been frustrating to watch him in later years. Years back, debating Ford v Burns with Banquo and others, I was firmly in the Ford camp and saw him as a coming inspiration. In terms of pure rugby talent he was/is right up with the best. I just see his later years as a disappointment with his skill/flair kept firmly in his pocket for very occasional use. Some say he still has a great eye for opportunities. I see a default kicker who undersells himself.

Well it's easy for me to say I'd just pick the most natural players and let them run loose, but I'm not accountable to anyone. I do believe there's a better way for this team to be playing than what we've seen in the last 3 or 4 years, but there are clearly signs Eddie is changing his approach already, as you say- even if we've not quite settled on one. Going back to 2016 I don't think I'd have drawn the same conclusion about the way the team needed to play, but EJ got them to win like 20 games on the bounce so what do I know?

There's no game-plan I can think of where I wouldn't involve Ford. He's just that good. It's a shame we've had to endure so many games where all he does is kick, but I wouldn't assume that's his personal preference.

I'd have dropped Youngs a long, long time ago, but as it is he might as well play through to the RWC. There's a chance Quirke/Mitchell will take the shirt from him but I doubt it, and may as well just wait until 2024.

Mikey Brown wrote:Well it's easy for me to say I'd just pick the most natural players and let them run loose, but I'm not accountable to anyone. I do believe there's a better way for this team to be playing than what we've seen in the last 3 or 4 years, but there are clearly signs Eddie is changing his approach already, as you say- even if we've not quite settled on one. Going back to 2016 I don't think I'd have drawn the same conclusion about the way the team needed to play, but EJ got them to win like 20 games on the bounce so what do I know?

There's no game-plan I can think of where I wouldn't involve Ford. He's just that good. It's a shame we've had to endure so many games where all he does is kick, but I wouldn't assume that's his personal preference.

I'd have dropped Youngs a long, long time ago, but as it is he might as well play through to the RWC. There's a chance Quirke/Mitchell will take the shirt from him but I doubt it, and may as well just wait until 2024.

There is obviously a need for good coaching, especially in defence and in the set piece. But I think much less so in attack, where smart rugby players should be allowed to play what is in front of them within a basic game plan. Repetitive attacking ploys by number are easily spotted and nullified by good opposition. I think the current French team looks so good because they have struck the right balance between hard nosed defence/set piece and flexible attack where players are allowed to make decisions, express themselves and play creative rugby.

A question of appointing the right coaches? Edwards would be top of my list.

Oakboy wrote:A question of appointing the right coaches? Edwards would be top of my list.

Focus on defence eh Dors?

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:A question of appointing the right coaches? Edwards would be top of my list.

Focus on defence eh Dors?

I think its as MB says above. Tight defence creates the foundation for attack. You're the one with coaching expertise. Would you not apply that maxim?

I think France are the team to beat at their RWC with Edwards providing the backbone. Natural attacking instincts might do the rest.

I'd love to see more heads up rugby in general, but on the topic of incredibly effective and structured defences Eddie did just take us to a win over SA. There was quite clearly a structure/tactic in place that allowed us to get around that particular defensive setup. Then again, players who can run a certain shape is of little use if they don't have the vision/skill to pick out the right options. Again Ford is kind of the best in the world at this.

On a similar note (and nothing to do with Leicester vs Harlequins) I can't wait to see if Slade's performance as a playmaker in lieu of Farrell is him really turning a corner at international level, or just one of those out-of-the-blue performances we sometimes get from him. I'd got to the point of giving up on him getting/taking the chance to step up as a playmaker. Has he just not been set up to succeed at any point so far when not having Manu to work off of?

The strange thing is that Slade played pretty damned well when paired with Marchant. How much preparation/training went into that combination thrust upon the team by an early injury? Will either/both get picked when Tuilagii and Farrell are fit?

Smith/Slade/Marchant with t'other two on the bench might be the way to go.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:A question of appointing the right coaches? Edwards would be top of my list.

Focus on defence eh Dors?

I think its as MB says above. Tight defence creates the foundation for attack. You're the one with coaching expertise. Would you not apply that maxim?

I think France are the team to beat at their RWC with Edwards providing the backbone. Natural attacking instincts might do the rest.

It wouldn't be where I'd start with this England team if rebuilding the coaching; defence is not the presenting issue. So I think Edwards being 'top of the list' would be an odd place for someone with your view on rugby to start. Be a good guy to get on board for sure...but whether he's top of the list is the question.

On Spiffy's point re attacking- sure, heads up rugby sounds great, but there's a hell of a lot of work needs to go on to enable that to happen- and a load of skills and decision making practice needs to go into it; it also kind of assumes that defences are biddable. But I do agree that players should be in a position to play to their strengths (whether natural and/or developed)- there is a lot of coaching still that goes into that.