Australia Tour Squad

[Tigersman]

Being better than "he will do.."

v Sarries at 12 Dingwall did not impress. I'm not saying he can't play 12 but he didn't look significantly better than Porter either

[Banquo]

Being better than "he will do.."

v Sarries at 12 Dingwall did not impress. I'm not saying he can't play 12 but he didn't look significantly better than Porter either

I think he is better than 'he will do' which is your phrase so that's where we diverge. I've seen a lot of him live at 12, and he's good there- I don't recall him being poor v sarries at 12 tbh. I''ve not spent much time watching Porter, so can't claim either is better than the other. What do you expect a 'genuine 12' to be able to do out of interest?

[Oakboy]

With Simmonds and Dombrandt unavailable, I'm amazed Tom Wilis and Barbeary are missing.

[Banquo]

With Simmonds and Dombrandt unavailable, I'm amazed Tom Wilis and Barbeary are missing.

Tom Willis, yes.

[Oakboy]

Arguably, we are one injury away from Furbank at 10.

[Mellsblue]

Arguably, we are one injury away from Furbank at 10.

Don’t tease me.

[Oakboy]

Arguably, we are one injury away from Furbank at 10.

Don’t tease me.

If Smith is injured, it's that or a rookie at 12, isn't it?

I'd pick Farrell at 10 anyway with Lizowski at 12, except he ain't on the plane(s).

[TheNomad]

I just feel very uninspired about the potential of this team - it's not that I don't think there's a good team you could make from the broader group of players, especially with some re-jigging and time, but I just think it's unlikely.

Jones should have gone after the WC. After that, after the 6Ns. We've flatlined for a long time. At present, I think we're totally out of the running for the WC. Totally.

We neither have a dominant pack, nor a dangerous group of backs.

[Mellsblue]

Have we gone from you can’t have Dingwall over Porter at 12 because Dingwall is only a makeshift 12 to we should pick Porter at 12 despite him also being a makeshift 12 because he played well at 12 on Saturday in match that resembled test rugby in virtually no way at all?

How many times has Porter played 12 this season?

[Scrumhead]

I’m OK with he squad. More or less what I would have picked with a couple of exceptions.

Jones should have gone after the WC. After that, after the 6Ns. We've flatlined for a long time. At present, I think we're totally out of the running for the WC. Totally.

I agree. However, I think the ‘at present’ is the operative piece. We really are in bad place right now and it’s hard to see us coming out of it without a significant change.

I could see that coming in 2 forms …

1) A successful tour (however unlikely that looks right now), could be the catalyst we need. If we can come away with a tour victory, I think that would be the kind of turning point we need in order to kick on and accelerate in to the RWC. I know it’s fanciful, but let’s imagine that whatever is missing somehow clicks and we start playing as more than the sum of our parts rather than significantly less.

2) A terrible tour and the end of Eddie. Given where we are, it does feel like a 3-0 loss with no redeeming elements would probably be untenable. Mostly from the POV that anyone new coming in would need the 6N to really get enough time to make an impact.

Either way, it feels like something seismic needs to happen for us to stop the embarrassing descent.

And yet … I still believe that we have some very good players and if that can be harnessed in the right way, we could do OK. I’m not saying we become contenders, but we might just become dark horses.

[Peej]

Those centre selections, locks and backrow are all a bit of a mess. Scrum half too is a bit odd. Personally think Eddie is floundering.

[SDHoneymonster]

I think I'm more relaxed than a lot about Jones remaining in post simply because 1) rightly or wrongly his entire focus is on the WC, and therefore the path to it is likely to be bumpier and 2) England aren't in a massively different position now than they were at this point in 2018, and obviously they then went on to reach the final. Worth pointing out we were about to embark on a tour to SA at this point four years ago which also didn't go too well, but watching the rugby on show from both it would've taken a brave or foolish person to put money on both of those sides contesting the final barely a year later given that NZ were demolishing Australia in the Bledisloe and Ireland were on the march. I certainly would like to see England playing better than they currently are and it's obviously no guarantee that lightning will strike twice but I find it hard to get so worked up when the teams that have smooth sailing up to the world cup are rarely the ones that win it *looks across the Irish Sea* unless they're New Zealand circa 2011/2015.

[Mellsblue]

Saints- Dingwall . He's played 12 a lot, as I may have mentioned

I think the fact I have also pointed that out may have undermined your argument. Unreliable & non-credible witness, and all that. Apols.

But we're now aware that you've played against Andrew Sheridan, which helps your case.

Puja

Poor old Simon Danielli

[Timbo]

Glad to see the Vunipola’s back. Watching them both play well and look close to their best recently has made me realise that it was faintly ridiculous to think we could move on from 2 such great players easily. They’re not old and if they’re focussed no reason they can’t be key players once again. Really not that long ago it felt like having the 2 of them fit and in form at the same time felt like a having a cheat code in our pack. There’s more than enough raw material there to piece together a serious pack of forwards, one that should be able to go toe-to-toe with (and hopefully get the better of) anyone.

Back line is a lot more iffy. Hopefully Eddie will at least pick some pace and athleticism in our 3 quarters. 6 nations we were so ponderous.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

Squad is about as good as can be expected with injuries, experimentation etc
I am getting pretty tired of the "everything outside of a WC is WC preperation" philosophy tbh. I might forget about it if we do win, but it does make the intervening 3 years pretty miserable.
I think people have very short memories over Eddie's tenure though, we should all know what he's doing by now!
Having said that, I do think that a tour to Aus might (again!) show a few more glimpses of what he's got up his sleeves. Even Eddie has games outside of a WC Final that he'd really like to win...

[Timbo]

Those centre selections, locks and backrow are all a bit of a mess. Scrum half too is a bit odd. Personally think Eddie is floundering.

The centres are, give or take, all we’ve got tbh

Locks minus Ewels look good to me, especially if you add in Lawes. What’s the issue? Backrow is strong?

[Banquo]

Arguably, we are one injury away from Furbank at 10.

tbh wouldnt be the worst thing

[jimKRFC]

I feel that if Porter went through the English setup it would be looked differently by people TBH.
He outplayed Thompkins and Daly opposite him this weekend IMO.

Do you think he's a genuine 12 though?

Puja

In the league who is that is fit I guess?

Bath - Ojomoh very talented had some injury issues not major but still
Bristol - Bedlow interesting prospect
Glous - Atkinson played himself out of the squad yesterday
Exeter - Devoto massive amounts of serious injuries
Quins - Non EQP
Tigers - Kelly injured
Irish - Non EQP
Falcons - Lucock average Club man
Saints - Non EQP
Sale - Manu or Non EQP
Sarries - Non EQP
Wasps - Non EQP
Worcester - Non EQP

Porter tbh isn't going to play anyway at most he might be a bench 23 player. But he's solid and tbh with the way england wants to play (Simple as fuck) he fits that mould of just crash and work hard

You missed P'OC at Bristol (covers centre, wing and FB).

[Adam_P]

Even more bemused by the Randall over Mitchell selection after yesterday's game. Mitchell has been on fire pretty much all season and should definitely be ahead of JvP and Randall.

Ewels is becoming one of those players where the only obvious conclusion to come to is that he has some very dodgy kompromat on some or all of the coaching team.

[Tigersman]

JVP is a classic 3rd choice development pick from Eddie, I don't agree with it but that 3rd 9 role always seems to be a "development" thing for him.

Randall honestly I don't think is even the best 9 in Bristol this season

[Peej]

Even more bemused by the Randall over Mitchell selection after yesterday's game. Mitchell has been on fire pretty much all season and should definitely be ahead of JvP and Randall.

Ewels is becoming one of those players where the only obvious conclusion to come to is that he has some very dodgy kompromat on some or all of the coaching team.

Tom Willis has similarly impressive stats and his complete omission is just as odd.

[Peej]

Those centre selections, locks and backrow are all a bit of a mess. Scrum half too is a bit odd. Personally think Eddie is floundering.

The centres are, give or take, all we’ve got tbh

Locks minus Ewels look good to me, especially if you add in Lawes. What’s the issue? Backrow is strong?

I meant mess more as look what state we're in AND odd selection choices. I don't think backrow is strong, I think it's unbalanced and players are being carried. I think chances to try others have been wasted, both last summer and in the game yesterday. Billy supposedly failed an HIA and is going but as the sole 8? Why not take another? Why play some randomer like Chick yesterday and then drop the idea of a back up 8 completely?

[Adam_P]

Even more bemused by the Randall over Mitchell selection after yesterday's game. Mitchell has been on fire pretty much all season and should definitely be ahead of JvP and Randall.

Ewels is becoming one of those players where the only obvious conclusion to come to is that he has some very dodgy kompromat on some or all of the coaching team.

Tom Willis has similarly impressive stats and his complete omission is just as odd.

Indeed, especially as the position he plays only has one other player in the sqaud - even more of a head scratcher

[Mellsblue]

Even more bemused by the Randall over Mitchell selection after yesterday's game. Mitchell has been on fire pretty much all season and should definitely be ahead of JvP and Randall.

Ewels is becoming one of those players where the only obvious conclusion to come to is that he has some very dodgy kompromat on some or all of the coaching team.

Tom Willis has similarly impressive stats and his complete omission is just as odd.

Agreed on both.
Swap out Ewels, as there’s an unnecessary five locks in the squad, for Willis to allow injury cover for Billy seems (too?) obvious.

[p/d]

I feel that if Porter went through the English setup it would be looked differently by people TBH.
He outplayed Thompkins and Daly opposite him this weekend IMO.

Right with you Tigersman.