Brits abroad

[stepsider]

Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

[francoisfou]

Round 20 of the Top14 is this weekend and there are three Englishmen in Montpellier's team at home to Clermont.
Zach Mercer will be at 8 - an earlier return to the side than I would've thought after being concussed on February 18th.
Elliot Stooke and Henry Thomas will be replacements.

[Mellsblue]

Henry Thomas! What could’ve been…

[Banquo]

Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

[FKAS]

If course Borthwick wants the rules to ease there will be players over in France next year he might want to call on but won't be able to. The issue with Jack Willis going back and forth to France and missing training camps should reinforce one of the reasons the rule is in place in the first place. The reduction in salary cap and the number of England players that would head over to France to effectively double their money (increased salary but still England match fees) would damage the Prem clubs quality.

I can't see the PRL playing nice with the RFU if they try and push this through.

[francoisfou]

There's more:

Zack Henry and Dan Robson are Pau's half backs at home to la Rochelle for whom Haydn Thompson-Stringer starts.
Joel Kpoku will wear 7 for Lyon away to Castres.
Tom Willis will be at 8 for Bordeaux/Bègles at Brive.
Vincent Koch (ok, he's not a Brit) is on the bench for Stade Français at Toulon.
Brad Shields (not a true Brit) will be at 6 for Perpignan at home to Bayonne for whom Marland Yarde will be on the left wing.
Toulouse play at Racing on Sunday where Jack Willis will surely play.

[stepsider]

Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

In theory, either laissez-faire market forces or dictatorship, with nothing in between. In other words, either a world of no salary caps/player constraints etc, or alternatively the RFU (assuming that it's much better managed) in control of everything rather like the IRFU is here in Ireland. Both would mean lots of short-term pain but long-run gain.

In practice - as neither of the above routes is ever likely to be adopted - a one/two year extension of the current rules for ex-Wasps/Wuss players.

[francoisfou]

Chris Cook and Matt Kvesic are in Zebre’s starting XV in Glasgow this evening.

[Puja]

Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

In theory, either laissez-faire market forces or dictatorship, with nothing in between. In other words, either a world of no salary caps/player constraints etc, or alternatively the RFU (assuming that it's much better managed) in control of everything rather like the IRFU is here in Ireland. Both would mean lots of short-term pain but long-run gain.

In practice - as neither of the above routes is ever likely to be adopted - a one/two year extension of the current rules for ex-Wasps/Wuss players.

I'm not sure a world of no salary caps or player constraints would work out for long run gain. Seems like a recipe for a bankruptcy a year until there was no-one left, except maybe Bristol and Bath.

Puja

[stepsider]

it would almost certainly mean fewer, but hopefully better capitalised and actually profitable, clubs.

Talking of bankruptcy, though, how many Prem clubs are viable businesses? And how many will ultimately survive?

Looking forward (say) five years, the future doesn't look very bright.

[Puja]

it would almost certainly mean fewer, but hopefully better capitalised and actually profitable, clubs.

Talking of bankruptcy, though, how many Prem clubs are viable businesses? And how many will ultimately survive?

Looking forward (say) five years, the future doesn't look very bright.

I'm not sure "Some clubs are a bit close to the financial edge" is a particularly good reason to actively give them a shove. It's Darwinian, sure, but you've gotta have enough survivors to run a functioning league or else the entire thing goes down the pan.

Puja

[Banquo]

Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

In theory, either laissez-faire market forces or dictatorship, with nothing in between. In other words, either a world of no salary caps/player constraints etc, or alternatively the RFU (assuming that it's much better managed) in control of everything rather like the IRFU is here in Ireland. Both would mean lots of short-term pain but long-run gain.

In practice - as neither of the above routes is ever likely to be adopted - a one/two year extension of the current rules for ex-Wasps/Wuss players.

Compelling

[stepsider]

Not advocating actively pushing any club. But from the overall debt/cash flow numbers, it's pretty clear that some clubs aren't just "a bit close to the financial edge", they're actually over it but haven't yet hit the ground below. Like the guy who jumps off a 50-storey building and gives ongoing updates: after falling 45 floors, he says "I'm still OK..."

The number of survivors under the current system will depend on how many deep-pocketed backers there are/will continue to be. This doesn't appeal as a long-run sustainable business model.

Anyway, much as I like talking about Darwin, this is going O/T. My original comment centred on SB's refused request to the RFU re. non-English-based players. Still hopeful for a compromise there.

[Puja]

Not advocating actively pushing any club. But from the overall debt/cash flow numbers, it's pretty clear that some clubs aren't just "a bit close to the financial edge", they're actually over it but haven't yet hit the ground below. Like the guy who jumps off a 50-storey building and gives ongoing updates: after falling 45 floors, he says "I'm still OK..."

The number of survivors under the current system will depend on how many deep-pocketed backers there are/will continue to be. This doesn't appeal as a long-run sustainable business model.

Anyway, much as I like talking about Darwin, this is going O/T. My original comment centred on SB's refused request to the RFU re. non-English-based players. Still hopeful for a compromise there.

Removing all constraints would be giving an active push - stripping struggling clubs of their England players while simultaneously giving the green light for their rivals to outspend sends them to the bottom of the table, getting clumped every week, which isn't going to draw in crowds, sponsors, or rescue packages.

Thinking of returning to the original topic, I think Borthwick's been taken a bit out of context in the original article. Reading the actual words he's quoted as saying, rather than the commentary and spin that various outlets have put inbetween quotes, he's said, "This is none of my business and it's the RFU and PRL's job to sort it out. If there is a massive exodus, then I probably would like the rules to change because I need to be able to pick the best players." Which appears to have been written up as "This is ... my business ... to sort ... out. ... I ... would like the rules to change. ... to ... pick the best players."

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I’m just glad the existing system is working so well that we aren’t thinking of making any changes.

[francoisfou]

Jack Willis will be on the bench for Toulouse at Racing this evening.
There are glowing reports on Zach Mercer's performance for Montpellier in their 34-6 demolition of Clermont.

[Mikey Brown]

If there is a massive exodus, then I probably would like the rules to change because I need to be able to pick the best players." Which appears to have been written up as "This is ... my business ... to sort ... out. ... I ... would like the rules to change. ... Need to ... pick the best players."

Puja

Yeah this seems to be the rather backwards (imo) perspective I keep seeing on this. Many Prem teams are struggling so let's actively make the league worse by losing all of the top talent. Maybe it becomes more affordable, but how many viewers are lost?

I would also assume the disruption and catch-up time needed per player (with limited access to the England squad) increases exponentially. Willis coming in late isn't ideal, but everyone else knows what's going on. When half the squad are unavailable for certain portions of training you'd think it becomes kind of pointless.

[Oakboy]

This business is obviously linked to the salary cap. On the BBC website in the Monye/Care discussion, there is mention of the idea of allowing overseas players to be selected for the remaining two years of the lower salary cap. I did not know that there was that time limit. Can anyone confirm details?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/64870428

"I just don't think our game at the moment can keep hold of all its England international players - we just don't have the finances to do it," Monye said.

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

[Mellsblue]

I don’t agree with Monye often but…

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t agree with Monye often but…

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

[Puja]

I don’t agree with Monye often but…

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

[francoisfou]

I don’t agree with Monye often but…

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

[Banquo]

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?



What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

Is Borthwick 'demanding' that?

[francoisfou]

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

Is Borthwick 'demanding' that?

Ok, maybe demanding is a bit strong! From what I understand, he’s requesting that the current ruling on the eligibility of foreign based players be reviewed!

[Puja]

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

Is Borthwick 'demanding' that?

Ok, maybe demanding is a bit strong! From what I understand, he’s requesting that the current ruling on the eligibility of foreign based players be reviewed!

Thinking of returning to the original topic, I think Borthwick's been taken a bit out of context in the original article. Reading the actual words he's quoted as saying, rather than the commentary and spin that various outlets have put inbetween quotes, he's said, "This is none of my business and it's the RFU and PRL's job to sort it out. If there is a massive exodus, then I probably would like the rules to change because I need to be able to pick the best players." Which appears to have been written up as "This is ... my business ... to sort ... out. ... I ... would like the rules to change. ... to ... pick the best players."

Puja