RugbyRebels

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:05 pm Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:37 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:05 pm Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:09 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:37 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:05 pm Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

In theory, either laissez-faire market forces or dictatorship, with nothing in between. In other words, either a world of no salary caps/player constraints etc, or alternatively the RFU (assuming that it's much better managed) in control of everything rather like the IRFU is here in Ireland. Both would mean lots of short-term pain but long-run gain.

In practice - as neither of the above routes is ever likely to be adopted - a one/two year extension of the current rules for ex-Wasps/Wuss players.

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:50 pm it would almost certainly mean fewer, but hopefully better capitalised and actually profitable, clubs.

Talking of bankruptcy, though, how many Prem clubs are viable businesses? And how many will ultimately survive?

Looking forward (say) five years, the future doesn't look very bright.

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 8:09 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:37 pm

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 3:05 pm Borthers wants a rule change:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... -call.html

I'm aware that several on this bored including our esteemed moderator disagree, but I'd also like to see the rules eased.

What’s your proposal for the board’s consideration. We are never bored

In theory, either laissez-faire market forces or dictatorship, with nothing in between. In other words, either a world of no salary caps/player constraints etc, or alternatively the RFU (assuming that it's much better managed) in control of everything rather like the IRFU is here in Ireland. Both would mean lots of short-term pain but long-run gain.

In practice - as neither of the above routes is ever likely to be adopted - a one/two year extension of the current rules for ex-Wasps/Wuss players.

stepsider wrote: ↑Fri Mar 03, 2023 11:43 pm Not advocating actively pushing any club. But from the overall debt/cash flow numbers, it's pretty clear that some clubs aren't just "a bit close to the financial edge", they're actually over it but haven't yet hit the ground below. Like the guy who jumps off a 50-storey building and gives ongoing updates: after falling 45 floors, he says "I'm still OK..."

The number of survivors under the current system will depend on how many deep-pocketed backers there are/will continue to be. This doesn't appeal as a long-run sustainable business model.

Anyway, much as I like talking about Darwin, this is going O/T. My original comment centred on SB's refused request to the RFU re. non-English-based players. Still hopeful for a compromise there.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:14 amIf there is a massive exodus, then I probably would like the rules to change because I need to be able to pick the best players." Which appears to have been written up as "This is ... my business ... to sort ... out. ... I ... would like the rules to change. ... Need to ... pick the best players."

Puja

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:25 pm I don’t agree with Monye often but…

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:51 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:25 pm I don’t agree with Monye often but…

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:18 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:51 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:25 pm I don’t agree with Monye often but…

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?

"Steve Borthwick's job is to select the very best players. With so many heading to France, he perhaps has lost some of that ability to do that.

"If it's for two years until the salary cap goes back up then I think that would be a really good compromise."

What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:10 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:18 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 2:51 pm

Is there something I’m failing to understand about this?



What is the compromise here? He can select French based players. Haven’t he and Eddie always been able to if they had wanted to? The issue is the EPS and actually getting decent enough access to them to make it worthwhile doing so. Unless we start doing all our training camps in France I don’t see how this is useful?

There’s been so much focus on “time in camp” under Eddie and I would assume Borthwick feels somewhat similar, based on his comments about Willis at the beginning of the 6 nations.

Would the Top14 suddenly allow us more leeway (and not play players in break weeks etc.) because we’ve ‘let’ them buy a bunch of the best Premiership players? It might be cost effective for the premiership clubs, but what is the incentive for France/T14 to change how they do things?

I feel like I’m missing some fundamental part of this. Would there be some further negotiation with the French league to follow this decision?

On a side not - Imagine being Zach Mercer coming back here to play for England and a dozen players are going the other way.

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:41 pm

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:10 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 3:18 pm

Bang on.

Also worth noting that "so many heading to France" is begging the question. The "so many" basically comprises of LCD who will be missed, with Ribbans/Marchant/Simmonds/Nowell maybe being around the squad but hardly essential parts of the side that we're drastically weakened without. If we keep the policy, we are missing out on one (1) player from our 23, and that one an injury-prone player who will be 30 post RWC.

Saying "we can't afford to keep all our internationals in this country" is missing the point that we *are* currently keeping all our internationals in this country. The EPS money tops up the difference between Prem wages and French wages and the only ones going are those who don't fancy their chances at regular EPS money. The very fact that JWillis is equivocating on his future until it's determined whether he can have his cake and eat it proves that it's a major consideration for players. Change the rules and there'll be no putting the toothpaste back in the tube - we'll just have a second-class domestic competition forever.

Puja

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

Is Borthwick 'demanding' that?

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:44 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:41 pm

francoisfou wrote: ↑Tue Mar 07, 2023 4:10 pm

I’d tend to agree with this, much as I enjoy watching the Willis bros, Mercer etc lighting up the Top14, the English Premier league rugby would be the worse for it. However, if a player is prioritizing a top salary instead of the chance of England caps, then good luck to him, and depending on his age, may not have many years to make the most of the opportunities he has. Or maybe the RFU will accède to Borthwick’s demands and permit him to select players who play abroad. If they do, Zach Mercer may not be too pleased.

Is Borthwick 'demanding' that?

Ok, maybe demanding is a bit strong! From what I understand, he’s requesting that the current ruling on the eligibility of foreign based players be reviewed!

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 9:14 amThinking of returning to the original topic, I think Borthwick's been taken a bit out of context in the original article. Reading the actual words he's quoted as saying, rather than the commentary and spin that various outlets have put inbetween quotes, he's said, "This is none of my business and it's the RFU and PRL's job to sort it out. If there is a massive exodus, then I probably would like the rules to change because I need to be able to pick the best players." Which appears to have been written up as "This is ... my business ... to sort ... out. ... I ... would like the rules to change. ... to ... pick the best players."