RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:51 pm The Farrell ban and mealy mouthed comments from the panel are exactly what i expected.
Cant give him a reduction due to previous record? No problem, lets give him a couple of weeks off for admitting guilt and being a thoroughly nice chap. Oh and tackle school (just how long has Farrell been a Pro?) will shave another week off.
It stinks. The whole thing needs overhaul.

The tackle school I've actually got very few problems with. Statistically, it's been shown to have a massive effect on future recidivism (Naulago amusingly getting a straight red for a clothesline the game after coming back notwithstanding), in the same way that speeding courses do for drivers. Given that he's been a pro this long and still tackling like that, there's no question that there are things that he could learn.

Puja

Another interesting bit of news RE: the coaching set-up is that Aled Walters IS set to join after all, which would obviously be a great get: the Boks were the fittest team at the 2019 tournament by a mile. I'm sure Leicester are thrilled, but it's another good appointment to the coaching team by Big Steve.

Might as well cancel the whole thing and just award us the World Cup this summer.

SDHoneymonster wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:22 pm Another interesting bit of news RE: the coaching set-up is that Aled Walters IS set to join after all, which would obviously be a great get: the Boks were the fittest team at the 2019 tournament by a mile. I'm sure Leicester are thrilled, but it's another good appointment to the coaching team by Big Steve.

Sounds like he's joining in the summer, still a blow but doesn't cut us off at the fecking knees like the RFU have done by taking Borthwick and Sinfield mid season.

Given the rumours it sounds like Tigers are going to seriously go after a high tier candidate for a change so a bit of space to bring in their own people might not be a bad thing.

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:02 pmGiven the rumours it sounds like Tigers are going to seriously go after a high tier candidate for a change so a bit of space to bring in their own people might not be a bad thing.

The last time we went on a world-wide search for a high tier candidate for head coach, we ended up with Matt O'Connor.

Puja

I hear Dean Ryan's on the market now.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:56 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:51 pm The Farrell ban and mealy mouthed comments from the panel are exactly what i expected.
Cant give him a reduction due to previous record? No problem, lets give him a couple of weeks off for admitting guilt and being a thoroughly nice chap. Oh and tackle school (just how long has Farrell been a Pro?) will shave another week off.
It stinks. The whole thing needs overhaul.

The tackle school I've actually got very few problems with. Statistically, it's been shown to have a massive effect on future recidivism (Naulago amusingly getting a straight red for a clothesline the game after coming back notwithstanding), in the same way that speeding courses do for drivers. Given that he's been a pro this long and still tackling like that, there's no question that there are things that he could learn.

Puja

I'm sure tackle school is great, but there is something seriously wrong with rugby coaching if this kind of thing can't be sorted out internally at the club level.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:55 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:56 pm

fivepointer wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:51 pm The Farrell ban and mealy mouthed comments from the panel are exactly what i expected.
Cant give him a reduction due to previous record? No problem, lets give him a couple of weeks off for admitting guilt and being a thoroughly nice chap. Oh and tackle school (just how long has Farrell been a Pro?) will shave another week off.
It stinks. The whole thing needs overhaul.

The tackle school I've actually got very few problems with. Statistically, it's been shown to have a massive effect on future recidivism (Naulago amusingly getting a straight red for a clothesline the game after coming back notwithstanding), in the same way that speeding courses do for drivers. Given that he's been a pro this long and still tackling like that, there's no question that there are things that he could learn.

Puja

I'm sure tackle school is great, but there is something seriously wrong with rugby coaching if this kind of thing can't be sorted out internally at the club level.

The tackle school is at the player’s club. They have to video the session(s) and send to World Rugby for sign off. I think Ewels spent two half days in school after he was sent off vs Ireland.

From an England point of view, assuming that Borthwick intends to select him, what is the likelihood of Farrell tackling high again? Ban, tackle school, mitigation - it's all so much twisted hot air. I doubt Farrell will change the way he plays.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:37 pm From an England point of view, assuming that Borthwick intends to select him, what is the likelihood of Farrell tackling high again? Ban, tackle school, mitigation - it's all so much twisted hot air. I doubt Farrell will change the way he plays.

Yep, a session on lowering your tackle height is unlikely to alter Farrell's approach. Finally on the disciplinary issue i'd just say that if tackle school is such a good idea, then lets see it run throughout the Premiership. If you want habits to change its the clubs that have to drive it.

What the ban does do is to relieve Borthwick of a bit of a headache. With Smith and Ford still out, his FH options were limited so he will be mightily relieved to have Farrell available.

Don’t know why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The citing process around high tackles is actually very logical, factual & most importantly very consistent. Farrell has been treated no differently to anyone else and the punishment was fair.

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:49 pm Don’t know why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The citing process around high tackles is actually very logical, factual & most importantly very consistent. Farrell has been treated no differently to anyone else and the punishment was fair.

Obviously there was lots of idiotic noise on this incident, as there is with anything on the internet, but I think it was the groaning inevitability of a sanction that doesn’t quite impact England, or (likely) the way the player plays the game, that has irritated a lot of people.

Farrell doesn’t need to change. His physicality is an asset with very little risk of repercussions, despite us looking more and more at the impact of concussions and prospect of the entire game being deemed unsafe in the next few years.

He’s not the only offender, he’s not the worst offender by any stretch, but he is a repeat offender and possibly the biggest name/role-model in the game, as well as frequent England captain. That doesn’t mean he should be made an example of ahead of anybody else, but of course it’s attracting a lot of discussion when we’re currently dealing with groups of ex players in their 40s and 50s that can barely recognise their own kids.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:32 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:55 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:56 pm

The tackle school I've actually got very few problems with. Statistically, it's been shown to have a massive effect on future recidivism (Naulago amusingly getting a straight red for a clothesline the game after coming back notwithstanding), in the same way that speeding courses do for drivers. Given that he's been a pro this long and still tackling like that, there's no question that there are things that he could learn.

Puja

I'm sure tackle school is great, but there is something seriously wrong with rugby coaching if this kind of thing can't be sorted out internally at the club level.

The tackle school is at the player’s club. They have to video the session(s) and send to World Rugby for sign off. I think Ewels spent two half days in school after he was sent off vs Ireland.

If this can be done at club level, then why don't the clubs put every player through it as a preemptive move against red cards? It would seem time well spent.

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:49 pm Don’t know why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The citing process around high tackles is actually very logical, factual & most importantly very consistent. Farrell has been treated no differently to anyone else and the punishment was fair.

Interesting statement, that. I don't have enough facts to argue. Is it reasonable to suggest that Farrell has been a habitual high tackler, though? I think he has been very lucky in the past to avoid disciplinary measures. Had two or three of his past indiscretions been viewed differently any claims to a good record might be less convincing.

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:49 pm Don’t know why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The citing process around high tackles is actually very logical, factual & most importantly very consistent. Farrell has been treated no differently to anyone else and the punishment was fair.

I mean, you've got a point that this outcome was inevitable and it's a fairly straightforward application of the same rules on high tackles that are generally applied elsewhere. The "Farrell may miss the 6N" headlines were alarmist clickbait - this was always going to be the result.

I'm mostly narked about the suggestion that the Bristol game will count because, "Who knows if Farrell will be selected for England?!" when that is clearly bollocks, and the fact that England are absolutely going to employ a loophole like "We sent him home on Friday and brought him back on Sunday, so the fact that he missed one day of training means it was totally a meaningful week in his suspension."

Puja

Curry out for at least the first two.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:20 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:32 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:55 pm I'm sure tackle school is great, but there is something seriously wrong with rugby coaching if this kind of thing can't be sorted out internally at the club level.

The tackle school is at the player’s club. They have to video the session(s) and send to World Rugby for sign off. I think Ewels spent two half days in school after he was sent off vs Ireland.

If this can be done at club level, then why don't the clubs put every player through it as a preemptive move against red cards? It would seem time well spent.

The clubs obviously feel the time would be better spent on other things.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:48 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:49 pm Don’t know why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The citing process around high tackles is actually very logical, factual & most importantly very consistent. Farrell has been treated no differently to anyone else and the punishment was fair.

I mean, you've got a point that this outcome was inevitable and it's a fairly straightforward application of the same rules on high tackles that are generally applied elsewhere. The "Farrell may miss the 6N" headlines were alarmist clickbait - this was always going to be the result.

I'm mostly narked about the suggestion that the Bristol game will count because, "Who knows if Farrell will be selected for England?!" when that is clearly bollocks, and the fact that England are absolutely going to employ a loophole like "We sent him home on Friday and brought him back on Sunday, so the fact that he missed one day of training means it was totally a meaningful week in his suspension."

Puja

This has never bothered me. It’s not for the citing panel to select the England squad.

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:33 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:48 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:49 pm Don’t know why so many get their knickers twisted over this. The citing process around high tackles is actually very logical, factual & most importantly very consistent. Farrell has been treated no differently to anyone else and the punishment was fair.

I mean, you've got a point that this outcome was inevitable and it's a fairly straightforward application of the same rules on high tackles that are generally applied elsewhere. The "Farrell may miss the 6N" headlines were alarmist clickbait - this was always going to be the result.

I'm mostly narked about the suggestion that the Bristol game will count because, "Who knows if Farrell will be selected for England?!" when that is clearly bollocks, and the fact that England are absolutely going to employ a loophole like "We sent him home on Friday and brought him back on Sunday, so the fact that he missed one day of training means it was totally a meaningful week in his suspension."

Puja

This has never bothered me. It’s not for the citing panel to select the England squad.

But it is for the citing panel to decide the length of a suspension and what games do and don't count. Given that he is a current member of the EPS and EPS members will miss that weekend, I would say it is perfectly reasonable to discount that weekend, with the caveat that it could be changed in the unlikely event that he is removed entirely from the EPS. Instead, they've done it the other way around - they've counted that weekend and made some vague suggestions that the RFU and player should consider that it might possibly have the option of being changed if he happens to be involved with England that day.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:34 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 4:02 pmGiven the rumours it sounds like Tigers are going to seriously go after a high tier candidate for a change so a bit of space to bring in their own people might not be a bad thing.

The last time we went on a world-wide search for a high tier candidate for head coach, we ended up with Matt O'Connor.

Puja

That's because the board in their wisdom decided to ignore the shortlist of candidates and go for the c̶h̶e̶a̶p̶ consistency option of O'Connor. The shortlist of candidates wasn't released but rumours were Ackerman (who then joined Glaws), van Graan (went to Munster) and Plumtree were the names given as potential head coaches. All would have been better than the lazy Aussie oaf.

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Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:38 pm

Timbo wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 7:33 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jan 11, 2023 6:48 pm

I mean, you've got a point that this outcome was inevitable and it's a fairly straightforward application of the same rules on high tackles that are generally applied elsewhere. The "Farrell may miss the 6N" headlines were alarmist clickbait - this was always going to be the result.

I'm mostly narked about the suggestion that the Bristol game will count because, "Who knows if Farrell will be selected for England?!" when that is clearly bollocks, and the fact that England are absolutely going to employ a loophole like "We sent him home on Friday and brought him back on Sunday, so the fact that he missed one day of training means it was totally a meaningful week in his suspension."

Puja

This has never bothered me. It’s not for the citing panel to select the England squad.

But it is for the citing panel to decide the length of a suspension and what games do and don't count. Given that he is a current member of the EPS and EPS members will miss that weekend, I would say it is perfectly reasonable to discount that weekend, with the caveat that it could be changed in the unlikely event that he is removed entirely from the EPS. Instead, they've done it the other way around - they've counted that weekend and made some vague suggestions that the RFU and player should consider that it might possibly have the option of being changed if he happens to be involved with England that day.

Puja

Not all the EPS will miss that weekend, just the ones selected in Borthwicks actual squad.

I’m all for a simple and easy to follow process and outcome. Banned for the next 3 professional games you’re eligible for. Then you can play again. Simple and easy to follow.

Is a ban just from matches properly meaningful? Being able to train with club or country and receiving salary normally reduces the severity of the punishment obviously. With ambiguity over what counts, as in this Farrell case, a ban for a simple calendar period to include being excluded from all first class rugby premises including training grounds might have the merit of being clear and simple.

Stolen from twitter.

Spineless panel hand Borthwick the shitty stick

I quite enjoyed this one.