RugbyRebels

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:45 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:26 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 9:03 pm

The back three might find it difficult to cut loose outside an underwhelming midfield.

I wasn't a fan of a Lawrence/Slade pairing when they were selected, but the way they played against Ireland and France was anything but underwhelming. I'm surprised that we've apparently turned against it?

Puja

Yes. They are not bad . Simply using Beasties own term "underwhelming" to respond to him and make the point. I'd still like to see more of what Freeman could do at 13 for a bit of midfield gas/power, which would allow another flyer on the wing.A back division containing Furbank/IFW/Sleightholme/Freeman would look pretty pacy and with some strike power.

Whoa there tiger. The quote was a bit underwhelming
And I was referencing four players not two.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:28 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:15 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 10, 2024 10:45 pm

Yes. They are not bad . Simply using Beasties own term "underwhelming" to respond to him and make the point. I'd still like to see more of what Freeman could do at 13 for a bit of midfield gas/power, which would allow another flyer on the wing.A back division containing Furbank/IFW/Sleightholme/Freeman would look pretty pacy and with some strike power.

Plus Henry Slade has been in the form of his life this season.

Same club form as normal tbh. Excellent club player. I suppose you must like his physicality

Not really. He's not my ideal option, obviously you know Dingwall and are desperate for him to step up. Which lets face it we were all hoping he would but hasn't.

Slade was Prem player of the season this season. Definitely in top form and the best we've seen from him in some time possibly ever.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... gby-awards

Couple of weeks out of date, but here’s the view from NZ: https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350292692 ... st-england

Feels like they are in transition too and I do wonder how much the SA teams moving to the URC has affected the week to week quality of opposition they’re getting in Super Rugby.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:23 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:28 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:15 am



Plus Henry Slade has been in the form of his life this season.

Same club form as normal tbh. Excellent club player. I suppose you must like his physicality

Not really. He's not my ideal option, obviously you know Dingwall and are desperate for him to step up. Which lets face it we were all hoping he would but hasn't.

Slade was Prem player of the season this season. Definitely in top form and the best we've seen from him in some time possibly ever.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... gby-awards

Desperate? lol, I am glad he has been capped, esp after some of the dross that has appeared in midfield. I didnt challenge your physicality point as its fair given his style of play. But Slade isnt all that physical either- I am also well aware he got player of the season, but as said, always been tip top for Exeter, but equally never consistently delivered excellence for England over many years. Dingwall and Lawrences presence/pressure does seem to have raised his game.

Who is your ideal option?

(Hasnt stepped up? two caps.......hasnt stepped up yet, im an optimist )

They’ve suffered with key injuries, the loss of the old guard, who were utter class, and the quality is not what it was. There’s still real danger across the possible squad but it doesn’t strike fear like it used to. They’ll still rip teams apart, but are not the scary beast they once were.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:57 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:23 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 12:28 pm

Same club form as normal tbh. Excellent club player. I suppose you must like his physicality

Not really. He's not my ideal option, obviously you know Dingwall and are desperate for him to step up. Which lets face it we were all hoping he would but hasn't.

Slade was Prem player of the season this season. Definitely in top form and the best we've seen from him in some time possibly ever.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... gby-awards

Desperate? lol, I am glad he has been capped, esp after some of the dross that has appeared in midfield. I didnt challenge your physicality point as its fair given his style of play. But Slade isnt all that physical either- I am also well aware he got player of the season, but as said, always been tip top for Exeter, but equally never consistently delivered excellence for England over many years. Dingwall and Lawrences presence/pressure does seem to have raised his game.

Who is your ideal option?

(Hasnt stepped up? two caps.......hasnt stepped up yet, im an optimist )

Some players look brilliant right away but 2 caps in a side playing poorly is not really fair judgement.

My ideal option at 13 would be Marchant but that’s not possible right now. I’m definitely interested to see how Will Joseph does next season. He was looking very good pre-injury.

Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:58 pm They’ve suffered with key injuries, the loss of the old guard, who were utter class, and the quality is not what it was. There’s still real danger across the possible squad but it doesn’t strike fear like it used to. They’ll still rip teams apart, but are not the scary beast they once were.

Yeah. Also worth pointing out that Tuipolotu is now out too which will likely mean an experienced second row pairing that’s a big step down from Retallick and Whitelock.

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:48 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:57 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:23 pm

Not really. He's not my ideal option, obviously you know Dingwall and are desperate for him to step up. Which lets face it we were all hoping he would but hasn't.

Slade was Prem player of the season this season. Definitely in top form and the best we've seen from him in some time possibly ever.

https://www.premiershiprugby.com/conten ... gby-awards

Desperate? lol, I am glad he has been capped, esp after some of the dross that has appeared in midfield. I didnt challenge your physicality point as its fair given his style of play. But Slade isnt all that physical either- I am also well aware he got player of the season, but as said, always been tip top for Exeter, but equally never consistently delivered excellence for England over many years. Dingwall and Lawrences presence/pressure does seem to have raised his game.

Who is your ideal option?

(Hasnt stepped up? two caps.......hasnt stepped up yet, im an optimist )

Some players look brilliant right away but 2 caps in a side playing poorly is not really fair judgement.

Northampton players get two matches but Guy Porter got as long as he wanted, and, as Furbank has proved, it’s a solid process.

Unless you’re a freak- Manu Tuilagi, Itoje- players are just trying to survive at test level for about their first 500 minutes of playing time. I think O’gara said most players can only start being themselves at international level after about 10 caps. The step up in physicality, intensity & spectacle is so vast. Not to mention it’s a new team, new coaches, new calls etc.

Sorry to state the obvious with this, but feel it needs emphasising when the likes of Dingwall & Ben Curry are copping criticism after barely having a sniff of test rugby. Let’s give them a bit of a chance now.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:10 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:48 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 1:57 pm

Desperate? lol, I am glad he has been capped, esp after some of the dross that has appeared in midfield. I didnt challenge your physicality point as its fair given his style of play. But Slade isnt all that physical either- I am also well aware he got player of the season, but as said, always been tip top for Exeter, but equally never consistently delivered excellence for England over many years. Dingwall and Lawrences presence/pressure does seem to have raised his game.

Who is your ideal option?

(Hasnt stepped up? two caps.......hasnt stepped up yet, im an optimist )

Some players look brilliant right away but 2 caps in a side playing poorly is not really fair judgement.

Northampton players get two matches but Guy Porter got as long as he wanted, and, as Furbank has proved, it’s a solid process.

Two try Guy is a hero I'll have you know. Came off the bench and helped rescue a draw Vs NZ.

I'm happy Dingwall is in the squad, just don't have him as a starter and enjoy winding Banquo up a bit.

FKAS wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:28 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:10 pm

Scrumhead wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 6:48 pm

Some players look brilliant right away but 2 caps in a side playing poorly is not really fair judgement.

Northampton players get two matches but Guy Porter got as long as he wanted, and, as Furbank has proved, it’s a solid process.

Two try Guy is a hero I'll have you know. Came off the bench and helped rescue a draw Vs NZ.

I'm happy Dingwall is in the squad, just don't have him as a starter and enjoy winding Banquo up a bit.

triggered, me. Glad to be among the grown ups tbh.

Timbo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:25 pm Unless you’re a freak- Manu Tuilagi, Itoje- players are just trying to survive at test level for about their first 500 minutes of playing time. I think O’gara said most players can only start being themselves at international level after about 10 caps. The step up in physicality, intensity & spectacle is so vast. Not to mention it’s a new team, new coaches, new calls etc.

Sorry to state the obvious with this, but feel it needs emphasising when the likes of Dingwall & Ben Curry are copping criticism after barely having a sniff of test rugby. Let’s give them a bit of a chance now.

Fair comment but do you risk them in crunch games when there better alternatives? Unless, we reinstate 'A' matches when do they get chances if injuries fail to create openings? I've always been in favour of giving youngsters with potential a crack in the first two years of the RWC cycle but most on here demand taking every 6N match seriously with our best XV. So, are we just considering the Japan match in the case of this tour and the weakest AI opposition?

Are Dingwall and B Curry good enough to leave out (say) Lawrence and Earl against NZ or Ireland? IMO, both are worthy squad back-up level only. It will be interesting to see how much game time SB gives them.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:51 am

Timbo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:25 pm Unless you’re a freak- Manu Tuilagi, Itoje- players are just trying to survive at test level for about their first 500 minutes of playing time. I think O’gara said most players can only start being themselves at international level after about 10 caps. The step up in physicality, intensity & spectacle is so vast. Not to mention it’s a new team, new coaches, new calls etc.

Sorry to state the obvious with this, but feel it needs emphasising when the likes of Dingwall & Ben Curry are copping criticism after barely having a sniff of test rugby. Let’s give them a bit of a chance now.

Fair comment but do you risk them in crunch games when there better alternatives? Unless, we reinstate 'A' matches when do they get chances if injuries fail to create openings? I've always been in favour of giving youngsters with potential a crack in the first two years of the RWC cycle but most on here demand taking every 6N match seriously with our best XV. So, are we just considering the Japan match in the case of this tour and the weakest AI opposition?

Are Dingwall and B Curry good enough to leave out (say) Lawrence and Earl against NZ or Ireland? IMO, both are worthy squad back-up level only. It will be interesting to see how much game time SB gives them.

Its Slade or Dingwall imo, with Slade getting the nod. A Slade/Dingwall combo as per Italy/Wales doestnt feel right to me.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:59 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:51 am

Timbo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 11, 2024 7:25 pm Unless you’re a freak- Manu Tuilagi, Itoje- players are just trying to survive at test level for about their first 500 minutes of playing time. I think O’gara said most players can only start being themselves at international level after about 10 caps. The step up in physicality, intensity & spectacle is so vast. Not to mention it’s a new team, new coaches, new calls etc.

Sorry to state the obvious with this, but feel it needs emphasising when the likes of Dingwall & Ben Curry are copping criticism after barely having a sniff of test rugby. Let’s give them a bit of a chance now.

Fair comment but do you risk them in crunch games when there better alternatives? Unless, we reinstate 'A' matches when do they get chances if injuries fail to create openings? I've always been in favour of giving youngsters with potential a crack in the first two years of the RWC cycle but most on here demand taking every 6N match seriously with our best XV. So, are we just considering the Japan match in the case of this tour and the weakest AI opposition?

Are Dingwall and B Curry good enough to leave out (say) Lawrence and Earl against NZ or Ireland? IMO, both are worthy squad back-up level only. It will be interesting to see how much game time SB gives them.

Its Slade or Dingwall imo, with Slade getting the nod. A Slade/Dingwall combo as per Italy/Wales doestnt feel right to me.

I still think all those Farrell caps at 12 should have been Slade's and I would have persevered with Slade/Marchant. Now, if the coaching is good enough, a versatile, interchangeable balance at 12/13 with Lawrence/Slade could develop into a classy unit.

When was the last one? Carling/Guscott or Greenwood/Tindall?

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 2:16 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:59 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:51 am

Fair comment but do you risk them in crunch games when there better alternatives? Unless, we reinstate 'A' matches when do they get chances if injuries fail to create openings? I've always been in favour of giving youngsters with potential a crack in the first two years of the RWC cycle but most on here demand taking every 6N match seriously with our best XV. So, are we just considering the Japan match in the case of this tour and the weakest AI opposition?

Are Dingwall and B Curry good enough to leave out (say) Lawrence and Earl against NZ or Ireland? IMO, both are worthy squad back-up level only. It will be interesting to see how much game time SB gives them.

Its Slade or Dingwall imo, with Slade getting the nod. A Slade/Dingwall combo as per Italy/Wales doestnt feel right to me.

I still think all those Farrell caps at 12 should have been Slade's and I would have persevered with Slade/Marchant. Now, if the coaching is good enough, a versatile, interchangeable balance at 12/13 with Lawrence/Slade could develop into a classy unit.

When was the last one? Carling/Guscott or Greenwood/Tindall?

Halliday/Guscott
Catt/Greenwood

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 2:16 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:59 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 8:51 am

Fair comment but do you risk them in crunch games when there better alternatives? Unless, we reinstate 'A' matches when do they get chances if injuries fail to create openings? I've always been in favour of giving youngsters with potential a crack in the first two years of the RWC cycle but most on here demand taking every 6N match seriously with our best XV. So, are we just considering the Japan match in the case of this tour and the weakest AI opposition?

Are Dingwall and B Curry good enough to leave out (say) Lawrence and Earl against NZ or Ireland? IMO, both are worthy squad back-up level only. It will be interesting to see how much game time SB gives them.

Its Slade or Dingwall imo, with Slade getting the nod. A Slade/Dingwall combo as per Italy/Wales doestnt feel right to me.

I still think all those Farrell caps at 12 should have been Slade's and I would have persevered with Slade/Marchant. Now, if the coaching is good enough, a versatile, interchangeable balance at 12/13 with Lawrence/Slade could develop into a classy unit.

When was the last one? Carling/Guscott or Greenwood/Tindall?

No love for Hipkiss/Erinle?

Tindall/Greenwood was the last one to my mind - easy to underrate it with memories of late-career Tindall, but it was ridiculously well-balanced in 2001-2003.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 2:43 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 2:16 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Jun 12, 2024 12:59 pm

Its Slade or Dingwall imo, with Slade getting the nod. A Slade/Dingwall combo as per Italy/Wales doestnt feel right to me.

I still think all those Farrell caps at 12 should have been Slade's and I would have persevered with Slade/Marchant. Now, if the coaching is good enough, a versatile, interchangeable balance at 12/13 with Lawrence/Slade could develop into a classy unit.

When was the last one? Carling/Guscott or Greenwood/Tindall?

No love for Hipkiss/Erinle?

Tindall/Greenwood was the last one to my mind - easy to underrate it with memories of late-career Tindall, but it was ridiculously well-balanced in 2001-2003.

Puja

But also underpinned by Catt coming on/in at 12. Tindall was pretty underrated, esp in defence. That was a good trio to have around.

Slade rightly has the 13 shirt after that great showing against Ireland and a good game vs France (iirc), with Lawrence at 12. I said it at the time though that Slade does have a habit of being bang average at times for England. Sometimes great, sometimes not good at all. He's obviously been on fire for Exeter this year and really took his chance recently with England.

However - if he reverts back to patchy/inconsistent Slade of old, I'd switch Freeman into 13 in a heartbeat, especially if you're playing Furbank at 15 bringing his distribution skills to the line anyway. I just feel that the more Freeman gets the ball the better and in the middle of the park he'll be an absolute handful. If you play Steward at 15 arguably I'd guess you might want Slade's handling skills back in, arguably.

On Timbo's point about giving B Curry and Dingwall a chance - totally with you in terms of the ridiculous hire and fire culture of the past few years generally. OHC comes into my mind - didn't get the ball basically but suddenly "he had his chance and he underwhelmed". He played during a period in which we were so shit we literally could get the ball to the wingers without a cross-field kick. B Curry I have no problem with but Dingwall's stature still worries me - against the French or say the South Africans, I'm not sure you can play him without worrying about it in defence, especially with a Finn Smith or Marcus Smith at 10 rather than a JW.

I definitely wouldn't say Fin Smith was weak in defence, based on what I've seen from him. He was 8th top tackler this season, and the only back in the top 10.

And Dingwall might not be massive, but certainly punches above his weight when he tackles people. Slade is not exactly a physical beast either is he.

https://x.com/CharlieFelix/status/17885 ... j6irA&s=19

Adam_P wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:24 pm
And Dingwall might not be massive, but certainly punches above his weight when he tackles people.

Slightly unfortunate turn of phrase there.

[quote=Adam_P post_id=323770 time=1718385895 user_id=313]
I definitely wouldn't say Fin Smith was weak in defence, based on what I've seen from him. He was 8th top tackler this season, and the only back in the top 10.

And Dingwall might not be massive, but certainly punches above his weight when he tackles people. Slade is not exactly a physical beast either is he.

https://x.com/CharlieFelix/status/17885 ... j6irA&s=19
[/quote]

Fin Smith made something ridiculous like 20 tackles Vs Leinster. Missed a few as well but he got no real protection from his backrow. He seems a decent tackler and certainly doesn't hesitate to be getting stuck in, much like Marcus Smith.

Dingwall has good rugby intelligence so anticipates well in defence. Technique is ok but he does lack physicality in the tackle. When he makes a tackle it doesn't often seem like a dominant hit. Bulking up a touch last off season and a competent defence coach at Saints has helped him but I'd certainly consider him a weaker tackler than Slade.

Dingwall is a solid all rounder as a centre but maybe lacks a definite USP. He's not an additional playmaker though he has got a decent skill set. He runs nice lines but he's neither notable quick nor a powerful carrier. In the right midfield he could become the glue that holds it together but England don't require that currently.

Adam_P wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:24 pm I definitely wouldn't say Fin Smith was weak in defence, based on what I've seen from him. He was 8th top tackler this season, and the only back in the top 10.

And Dingwall might not be massive, but certainly punches above his weight when he tackles people. Slade is not exactly a physical beast either is he.

https://x.com/CharlieFelix/status/17885 ... j6irA&s=19

I think it shows how much the modern game has changed when all 3 of our FHs could be considered absolutely fine as tacklers.

But when Marcus plays 15...I do worry about his defense. He's just nowhere near as good as a specialist at getting in the right place at the right time.

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:44 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:24 pm I definitely wouldn't say Fin Smith was weak in defence, based on what I've seen from him. He was 8th top tackler this season, and the only back in the top 10.

And Dingwall might not be massive, but certainly punches above his weight when he tackles people. Slade is not exactly a physical beast either is he.

https://x.com/CharlieFelix/status/17885 ... j6irA&s=19

I think it shows how much the modern game has changed when all 3 of our FHs could be considered absolutely fine as tacklers.

But when Marcus plays 15...I do worry about his defense. He's just nowhere near as good as a specialist at getting in the right place at the right time.

I hope never to see MS at FB again. Positional quirks can occasionally come off. That one did not and never will. He's a damned good FH. Pick him there unless there's a better one available - and currently there is not.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:53 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:44 pm

Adam_P wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 6:24 pm I definitely wouldn't say Fin Smith was weak in defence, based on what I've seen from him. He was 8th top tackler this season, and the only back in the top 10.

And Dingwall might not be massive, but certainly punches above his weight when he tackles people. Slade is not exactly a physical beast either is he.

https://x.com/CharlieFelix/status/17885 ... j6irA&s=19

I think it shows how much the modern game has changed when all 3 of our FHs could be considered absolutely fine as tacklers.

But when Marcus plays 15...I do worry about his defense. He's just nowhere near as good as a specialist at getting in the right place at the right time.

I hope never to see MS at FB again. Positional quirks can occasionally come off. That one did not and never will. He's a damned good FH. Pick him there unless there's a better one available - and currently there is not.

...but it legitimately has, though?

I understand wanting to keep him at fly-half, but saying that playing him at 15 "hasn't worked and never will" is a wild take, considering the last game at France saw him play 65 minutes in which it absolutely worked. Has he even had a particularly bad game at 15?

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 7:59 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Sat Jun 15, 2024 6:53 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Fri Jun 14, 2024 8:44 pm

I think it shows how much the modern game has changed when all 3 of our FHs could be considered absolutely fine as tacklers.

But when Marcus plays 15...I do worry about his defense. He's just nowhere near as good as a specialist at getting in the right place at the right time.

I hope never to see MS at FB again. Positional quirks can occasionally come off. That one did not and never will. He's a damned good FH. Pick him there unless there's a better one available - and currently there is not.

...but it legitimately has, though?

I understand wanting to keep him at fly-half, but saying that playing him at 15 "hasn't worked and never will" is a wild take, considering the last game at France saw him play 65 minutes in which it absolutely worked. Has he even had a particularly bad game at 15?

Puja

Don't think he's had a bad game at 15 for England.