Needs to play there regularly for Northampton before starting there for England, imo . If Saints want to do us all a favour they’ll make 10. Smith 11. Sleighholme 12. Dingers 13. Freeman 14. Hendy 15. Furbank their first choice backline.
Suspect that is what you’ll see when dingers is fit
Hope so. Saints didn't go down that route for the playoffs last season they preferred Odendaal in at 13 and left Hendy on the bench.
Lawrence and Freeman would bring plenty of pace and power to the England midfield. With Furbank at 15 surely we don't need to worry about having a playmaker or kicking option at 13.
Having said that Simply Ballkick has selected Lozowski so maybe we do.
I think Dingers will be fit before Odendaal. Odendaal was eventually coming good after a ropey start to be fair- but I think the backline as above has a lot of promise.
Not convinced either of them (Syd/Tommy) is really a decent defender at 12, and one will have to; not convinced by Lawrence at 12 intly full stop tbh, and Freeman needs to put in a shift at 13 in defence to convince imo.
Last edited by Banquo on Tue Oct 22, 2024 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 3:56 pm
How good a defender is Seb Atkinson?
I'm thinking 12. Atkinson 13. Lawrence/Freeman might be so good in attack that defence doesn't even matter, but I'm still curious.
Heresy.
But seriously, it really does.
Agreed.
Also Seb Atkinson hits above his weight and generally does a good job at stemming the tide for Glaws. Not sure he's the physical 12 Simply Bashitup is after though.
Didn’t think that needed a tongue in cheek emoji but hey ho. It will be interesting to see if El-Abd’s system is as reliant on Slade or if we can use a greater attacking option at 13.
Does Borthwick’s physical bash-it-up 12 even exist? Is Lawrence really the answer? It seems like once again we’re wedded to a setup requiring different kinds of players to what we actually have.
It’s all well and good saying big 12s are back in vogue, but if we don’t have our own DDA/Andre, Aki, Danty etc. we should just accept it. Has Hartley got that potential?
I sort of joke about just dropping Atkinson or Kelly in there at 12, but it feels like their rounded skillsets and ability to put others in space could make more of Lawrence, Freeman, IFW etc. in attack. Given time, obviously.
Clearly from the makeup of the squad this isn’t the way SB is going though. Maybe that’s a project for summer 2025.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 8:35 pm
Didn’t think that needed a tongue in cheek emoji but hey ho. It will be interesting to see if El-Abd’s system is as reliant on Slade or if we can use a greater attacking option at 13.
Does Borthwick’s physical bash-it-up 12 even exist? Is Lawrence really the answer? It seems like once again we’re wedded to a setup requiring different kinds of players to what we actually have.
It’s all well and good saying big 12s are back in vogue, but if we don’t have our own DDA/Andre, Aki, Danty etc. we should just accept it. Has Hartley got that potential?
I sort of joke about just dropping Atkinson or Kelly in there at 12, but it feels like their rounded skillsets and ability to put others in space could make more of Lawrence, Freeman, IFW etc. in attack. Given time, obviously.
Clearly from the makeup of the squad this isn’t the way SB is going though. Maybe that’s a project for summer 2025.
I like him in general, but does he change that equation? I think he’s quite a solid all rounder in either spot but don’t see quite the same skill or time on the ball as Atkinson/Kelly, or the pace/punch to make an impact as a running threat.
Seems like he has a good defensive brain, but not sure he has the brawn to make it count at international level?
The Lawrence situation really frustrates me. Here's a guy who excels at 13 for his club, so we play him at 12 and send him on crash balls. He excels with a handling 12. We have them, but for some reason Stinky Browneye wants to send Lawrence direct into contact so he can drop the ball.
I'm with you Mikey, Dingwall seems to have a very good rugby brain and some nice skills but his lack of physicality will probably stop him being a success at international level.
It is a concern that Simply Bash is quite so wedded to a direct 12 and a playmaking 13 when we don't quite have those options. Hopefully we'll start to see some evolution in that over the next 12 months.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:59 pm
I like him in general, but does he change that equation? I think he’s quite a solid all rounder in either spot but don’t see quite the same skill or time on the ball as Atkinson/Kelly, or the pace/punch to make an impact as a running threat.
Seems like he has a good defensive brain, but not sure he has the brawn to make it count at international level?
He’s very skilful and an excellent distributor and playmaker. Not sure what you are seeing in those two, esp Kelly on that front that’s better.
I tend to agree that boshing him up isn’t what I’d do regularly, though he is used to cross the gainline quite often for Saints. Kelly is a lot bigger, but not seen him be as creative as Dingwall, Atkinson bout same weight but needs to be more consistent.
I’d say Dingers is currently third choice when fit for SB but may change now- he’s highly thought of.
I agree that SB needs to have an eye on what we’ve got rather than square pegging it. IMO Dingers and Lawrence is worth a look, but dingers crocked just when that could have happened
Epaminondas Pules wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:31 am
The Lawrence situation really frustrates me. Here's a guy who excels at 13 for his club, so we play him at 12 and send him on crash balls. He excels with a handling 12. We have them, but for some reason Stinky Browneye wants to send Lawrence direct into contact so he can drop the ball.
Yus. We picked faz endlessly at 12 but didn’t put a runner at 13 unless JJ was playing well, now we have a runner at 13, don’t seem to want a 12 who has a standard all round centre game.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:59 pm
I like him in general, but does he change that equation? I think he’s quite a solid all rounder in either spot but don’t see quite the same skill or time on the ball as Atkinson/Kelly, or the pace/punch to make an impact as a running threat.
Seems like he has a good defensive brain, but not sure he has the brawn to make it count at international level?
He’s very skilful and an excellent distributor and playmaker. Not sure what you are seeing in those two, esp Kelly on that front that’s better.
I tend to agree that boshing him up isn’t what I’d do regularly, though he is used to cross the gainline quite often for Saints. Kelly is a lot bigger, but not seen him be as creative as Dingwall, Atkinson bout same weight but needs to be more consistent.
I’d say Dingers is currently third choice when fit for SB but may change now- he’s highly thought of.
I agree that SB needs to have an eye on what we’ve got rather than square pegging it. IMO Dingers and Lawrence is worth a look, but dingers crocked just when that could have happened
Kelly's got that big miss pass in his locker than brings the wingers into the game, was heavily in evidence at the weekend Vs Glaws. He's good at standing flat and letting the 10 play out the back. Where Dingwall has the edge on him is the soft hands close to the line, those deft little passes to release runners through gaps is a real skill. Then again Kelly hits like a flanker in defence so it's swings and roundabouts.
Dingwall should be higher up the pecking order currently as Kelly's form has been meh for a while having been incredible when Tigers won the league (there was a drop off that season in Tigers output towards the end of the season when Kelly got injured). Kelly is starting to look the part again but he needs more than a handful of games. Dingwall has been in decent form consistently for a while.
Seb Atkinson in a settled team should flourish, Glaws were all over the place last season and only slightly better so far this season. Be interesting to see if he makes the A side.
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Oct 22, 2024 9:59 pm
I like him in general, but does he change that equation? I think he’s quite a solid all rounder in either spot but don’t see quite the same skill or time on the ball as Atkinson/Kelly, or the pace/punch to make an impact as a running threat.
Seems like he has a good defensive brain, but not sure he has the brawn to make it count at international level?
He’s very skilful and an excellent distributor and playmaker. Not sure what you are seeing in those two, esp Kelly on that front that’s better.
I tend to agree that boshing him up isn’t what I’d do regularly, though he is used to cross the gainline quite often for Saints. Kelly is a lot bigger, but not seen him be as creative as Dingwall, Atkinson bout same weight but needs to be more consistent.
I’d say Dingers is currently third choice when fit for SB but may change now- he’s highly thought of.
I agree that SB needs to have an eye on what we’ve got rather than square pegging it. IMO Dingers and Lawrence is worth a look, but dingers crocked just when that could have happened
Kelly's got that big miss pass in his locker than brings the wingers into the game, was heavily in evidence at the weekend Vs Glaws. He's good at standing flat and letting the 10 play out the back. Where Dingwall has the edge on him is the soft hands close to the line, those deft little passes to release runners through gaps is a real skill. Then again Kelly hits like a flanker in defence so it's swings and roundabouts.
Dingwall should be higher up the pecking order currently as Kelly's form has been meh for a while having been incredible when Tigers won the league (there was a drop off that season in Tigers output towards the end of the season when Kelly got injured). Kelly is starting to look the part again but he needs more than a handful of games. Dingwall has been in decent form consistently for a while.
Seb Atkinson in a settled team should flourish, Glaws were all over the place last season and only slightly better so far this season. Be interesting to see if he makes the A side.
well quite. hence the original comment on Dingwall!
How often now (or should I ask, for how much of each game) are our centres rigidly aligned at IC/OC? They seem to my untutored eye to interchange a lot in defence and attack depending on right to left, left to right, position of the 10 etc. Lawrence looks more and more comfortable in that together with Slade. Continuing it if Slade is unavailable is the issue.
I mean Lozowski has a similar skillset that he can probably step in and play the Slade role. I'd assume that's what we'll see if Slade isn't fit, but sounds like Borthwick thinks he is.
Obviously defensive position changes a lot beyond first phase but I hadn't noticed Lawrence being at 13 much in defence, if at all. Slade standing in at first receiver in attack and Lawrence being the short running option isn't unusual or really affected by which number they're wearing though. It feels like most 10s now spend about half the game stood at second receiver in attack.
I think most people just want to see Lawrence running on to the ball in that 13 channel more. It has seemed to look quite predictable when he's lined up to run back against the grain in the 10/12 channel, but I guess that's not necessarily a matter of what shirt he's wearing.
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:33 pm
"Slade released from the England squad" -
"To play for Exeter this weekend so he can be match-fit for the NZ game -
Looks like we've spent a while talking about a moot point - it won't change from Lawrence/Slade until one of them dies and probably not even then.
Puja
Have we? I thought we knew this last week and Lozowski would just be a stand-in? It’s not like there are other 12s to choose from anyway.
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:33 pm
"Slade released from the England squad" -
"To play for Exeter this weekend so he can be match-fit for the NZ game -
Looks like we've spent a while talking about a moot point - it won't change from Lawrence/Slade until one of them dies and probably not even then.
Puja
Have we? I thought we knew this last week and Lozowski would just be a stand-in? It’s not like there are other 12s to choose from anyway.
Other than the fact Slade and Lozowski are both 13s so will both play in their preferred position if either starts.
We don't pick 12s, that sort of thing is so 10 years ago.
Puja wrote: ↑Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:33 pm
"Slade released from the England squad" -
"To play for Exeter this weekend so he can be match-fit for the NZ game -
Looks like we've spent a while talking about a moot point - it won't change from Lawrence/Slade until one of them dies and probably not even then.
Puja
Have we? I thought we knew this last week and Lozowski would just be a stand-in? It’s not like there are other 12s to choose from anyway.
Other than the fact Slade and Lozowski are both 13s so will both play in their preferred position if either starts.
We don't pick 12s, that sort of thing is so 10 years ago.
10?! We’re looking at about 20 years now with Lawrence, Farrell, Burgess, Tindall, Noon.
But yes my comment about no other 12s was referring to Lawrence continuing there. I hadn’t thought it was ever in doubt. Dingbat is still injured too, no?
Have we? I thought we knew this last week and Lozowski would just be a stand-in? It’s not like there are other 12s to choose from anyway.
Other than the fact Slade and Lozowski are both 13s so will both play in their preferred position if either starts.
We don't pick 12s, that sort of thing is so 10 years ago.
10?! We’re looking at about 20 years now with Lawrence, Farrell, Burgess, Tindall, Noon.
But yes my comment about no other 12s was referring to Lawrence continuing there. I hadn’t thought it was ever in doubt. Dingbat is still injured too, no?
What do you mean? We had Riki Flutey at 12!!!
Oh God, I'm just remembering...we also gave Tom May 2 caps at 12, didn't we...
And lest we forget the incredible talent that was Ayooooooola Erinle.
Who else did we shoehorn in? My mind has gone completely blank. It's like there's a hole right there, around the same size as a domestic abuser.
Other than the fact Slade and Lozowski are both 13s so will both play in their preferred position if either starts.
We don't pick 12s, that sort of thing is so 10 years ago.
10?! We’re looking at about 20 years now with Lawrence, Farrell, Burgess, Tindall, Noon.
But yes my comment about no other 12s was referring to Lawrence continuing there. I hadn’t thought it was ever in doubt. Dingbat is still injured too, no?
What do you mean? We had Riki Flutey at 12!!!
Oh God, I'm just remembering...we also gave Tom May 2 caps at 12, didn't we...
And lest we forget the incredible talent that was Ayooooooola Erinle.
Who else did we shoehorn in? My mind has gone completely blank. It's like there's a hole right there, around the same size as a domestic abuser.
Brad Barritt was definitely a 12, even if he wasn't to everyone's tastes.
10?! We’re looking at about 20 years now with Lawrence, Farrell, Burgess, Tindall, Noon.
But yes my comment about no other 12s was referring to Lawrence continuing there. I hadn’t thought it was ever in doubt. Dingbat is still injured too, no?
What do you mean? We had Riki Flutey at 12!!!
Oh God, I'm just remembering...we also gave Tom May 2 caps at 12, didn't we...
And lest we forget the incredible talent that was Ayooooooola Erinle.
Who else did we shoehorn in? My mind has gone completely blank. It's like there's a hole right there, around the same size as a domestic abuser.
Brad Barritt was definitely a 12, even if he wasn't to everyone's tastes.
Puja
Probably the best option we didn't use as much as we could, even if a bang average 12 at intl level. Obviously Lanky then stuck him at 13 in a match that went some way to sealing his own fate, with Barritt having a bit of a defensive mare alongside Burgess, unsurprisingly.
