Wiggy a Lion?

[Danno]

Indeed, but we were shocking for a few years so it's been nice to see

[Scrumhead]

The thing is, they all make a huge difference to the 10 and the options available to him. Comparing the speed and quality of ball Marcus got in the Autumn to what Fin got in the second half of the 6N is quite different IMO.

I don’t fully agree that Marcus’ first instinct is to run. Anyone who watches him regularly for Quins will know that he mixes it up very well. I think a lot of his decisions in the AIs were driven by slow ball with a rapidly advancing defence limiting his options. Sure it didn’t always work, but there were a number of occasions where the choice was ‘run or shovel shit’. Running was the better option.

IMO, the best pass in the 6N was Marcus’ miss pass to Earl in the 6N. He can and will ‘bring others into the game’ when the opportunity is there.

[Banquo]

I don’t fully agree that Marcus’ first instinct is to run.

I didnt say that if you are answering me.

[Puja]

IMO, it's about high-end aims.

I understand all the Andrew v Barnes stuff. I don't accept that Marcus is as maverick as implied. I think he could get just as much out of a team (i.e. the other players around him) as Fin IF the coaches are good enough - AND add a fair bit more besides. (Using him at 15 is an admission of defeat in a way but it was reasonable till Furbank returns.)

Of course, it remains possible that Fin could develop additional attacking flair and go beyond Marcus in every aspect of FH play - but I doubt it.

It is not necessarily a maverick thing. Marcus plays what is in front of him. He's got the scanning and processing to see the game differently from others. To be successful it requires others to have similar OR be able to read him. What works at Quins is they have a mix of both.

I think Marcus is a fabulously good player, but I'm not sure this England team has the game intelligence or familiarity to maximise it. Yet.

Its not just that though, his instincts ball in hand make it very hard for centres (say) to figure out support and running lines. Simply, he'll always look to make a break or create a hole/running lane himself, which often means a hitch kick and some lateral running; very hard to play off without both familiarity and own great skill. He has great running skills and footballing skills, but as yet hasn't found a way to get others playing well off him at 10 imo. Dors makes a fair challenge in lots of ways, but I do think our attacking shape has looked better with Fin at 10- might be a coincidence, but I doubt it.

I would say that Marcus's eye for a gap becomes a problem for him against the best, because a gap he waltzes through against Saracens is a gap that gets closed quickly against South Africa and he ends up getting scragged far too often. Making half-breaks isn't a problem in and of itself (it's a virtue for a 15 entering the line at first receiver!), but it's a problem for a 10 because it means he's on the ground and out of the game.

I don't think FSmith was perfect this 6N, but our attacking shape looked better because our playmaker was available to direct play and make decisions almost every phase, which was not the case with MSmith there.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I don’t fully agree that Marcus’ first instinct is to run.

I didnt say that if you are answering me.

I mean your actual words were ’he’ll always look to make a break or create a hole/running lane himself’, but fair enough it wasn’t a direct quote …

[Banquo]

I don’t fully agree that Marcus’ first instinct is to run.

I didnt say that if you are answering me.

I mean your actual words were ’he’ll always look to make a break or create a hole/running lane himself’, but fair enough it wasn’t a direct quote …

the 'or' bit is key there, that's not about 'running per se'...but maybe could be better phrased. And always is ott, tis true, but I do think he tries to force most plays himself off multiphase.

[FKAS]

It is not necessarily a maverick thing. Marcus plays what is in front of him. He's got the scanning and processing to see the game differently from others. To be successful it requires others to have similar OR be able to read him. What works at Quins is they have a mix of both.

I think Marcus is a fabulously good player, but I'm not sure this England team has the game intelligence or familiarity to maximise it. Yet.

Its not just that though, his instincts ball in hand make it very hard for centres (say) to figure out support and running lines. Simply, he'll always look to make a break or create a hole/running lane himself, which often means a hitch kick and some lateral running; very hard to play off without both familiarity and own great skill. He has great running skills and footballing skills, but as yet hasn't found a way to get others playing well off him at 10 imo. Dors makes a fair challenge in lots of ways, but I do think our attacking shape has looked better with Fin at 10- might be a coincidence, but I doubt it.

I would say that Marcus's eye for a gap becomes a problem for him against the best, because a gap he waltzes through against Saracens is a gap that gets closed quickly against South Africa and he ends up getting scragged far too often. Making half-breaks isn't a problem in and of itself (it's a virtue for a 15 entering the line at first receiver!), but it's a problem for a 10 because it means he's on the ground and out of the game.

I don't think FSmith was perfect this 6N, but our attacking shape looked better because our playmaker was available to direct play and make decisions almost every phase, which was not the case with MSmith there.

Puja

Agreed, key bit for me is that Marcus looks good at 10 but the backline generally doesn't. Fin looks ok at 10 but the backs look good.

Marcus is a fantastically skillful player, I'm not sure he's a top international general at flyhalf though. His game has matured a lot but I don't think there's the level of control this side needs currently with him at 10. Finn Russell went through similar developments and has come good, I think Marcus can as well.

In the meantime Fin Smith is offering those levels of control albeit he's got his own development areas to work on.

Neither are the finished article, neither is nailed on, currently Fin has the shirt and it's up to Marcus to usurp him.

[Oakboy]

I'm preferring to give Fin at least some credit. Comparing the two is chalk v cheese in truth and there's no reason why there shouldn't be a healthy competition tween the two, save that whilst Ford and Fin could be interchanged quite easily as starting 10, to maximise Marcus you definitely need different attacking structures because of his instinctual play and the need for familiarity with it. Not a good or bad thing, but a thing for sure.

You are a coach. I'm not - so Your insight goes beyond mine. All I'm saying is that the ceiling for the team could (should) be higher if the coaches are good enough to integrate Marcus at 10. I didn't start spouting about it on this thread as a plea for Marcus, more to suggest that Fin suits coaches with limitations (and maybe Wigglesworth in particular).

One interesting factor in Wig's Lions appointment will be working with Finn Russell. From an England viewpoint, I really hope that Marcus makes the tour to work with him too.

[Banquo]

I'm preferring to give Fin at least some credit. Comparing the two is chalk v cheese in truth and there's no reason why there shouldn't be a healthy competition tween the two, save that whilst Ford and Fin could be interchanged quite easily as starting 10, to maximise Marcus you definitely need different attacking structures because of his instinctual play and the need for familiarity with it. Not a good or bad thing, but a thing for sure.

You are a coach. I'm not - so Your insight goes beyond mine. All I'm saying is that the ceiling for the team could (should) be higher if the coaches are good enough to integrate Marcus at 10. I didn't start spouting about it on this thread as a plea for Marcus, more to suggest that Fin suits coaches with limitations (and maybe Wigglesworth in particular).

One interesting factor in Wig's Lions appointment will be working with Finn Russell. From an England viewpoint, I really hope that Marcus makes the tour to work with him too.

Different approach doesn't necessarily mean a higher ceiling tbh. Fin suits what we have available imo; different availability, different problem.

(ex coach; currency soon runs out, best I could do at the moment would be backs skills coach; it'd take me a year at least to take charge of a back division, likely more)