RugbyRebels

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 2:10 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 12:16 pm

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 9:21 am One wonders* if the Tories will use this electoral kicking to reflect that, just maybe, their descent into politics by right-wing dog-whistle sound-bite is perhaps not the best way to convince voters to follow them?

Haha no, this is clearly evidence that they weren't rightwards enough and they need to go further in order to win back the "silent majority" of secret fascists that apparently make up the population of the UK.

Puja

Latest rumour is that many Tories have basically given up the prospect of winning, and assume that there will be some narrowing of the polls before election day, but not enough to stop the loss of a lot of seats. The idea will be to allow Sunak to own the defeat and then save their energy for the post election leadership bloodletting.

The snag with that is that with Sunak safe in his position, probably, then there’s no incentive for him to go to a GE any time soon. He can just hang on and enjoy being PM (if that’s the right phrase) until he is obliged to dissolve parliament. Maybe something will come along which helps him? But no drive to go early to avoid a leadership coup.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm Anyone else utterly confused by Natalie Elphicke crossing the divide to join Labour? I mean, I get it from a her perspective as a self-preservation tactic, but she's a hard-right nutter whom I'd've expected to defect to Reform before Labour. Her statement even boldly says that she believes in the Conservative values espoused in the 2019 election and is only leaving because "The elected Prime Minister was ousted in a coup led by the unelected Rishi Sunak" - she's literally a Boris Johnson stan.

Why on earth is Starmer entertaining her? I mean, I know why, because he wants the short-term boost of nicking another MP, and the long-term boost of showing himself to be "safe to vote for" to Telegraph and Sun readers because he's so moderate that even right wingers will join him. However, gods only know what the existing Labour candidate for Dover, who was likely a shoo-in, thinks of being asked to stand aside for this utter belter. Surely she'll just defect back once the election is done and Sunak is ousted?


Edited to add: It appears she's not going to stand in the next election regardless, which does make it slightly less wild for Starmer to bring her in. However, it is startling that Diane Abbott is persona non-grata, while this is welcomed with open arms:

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm Anyone else utterly confused by Natalie Elphicke crossing the divide to join Labour? I mean, I get it from a her perspective as a self-preservation tactic, but she's a hard-right nutter whom I'd've expected to defect to Reform before Labour. Her statement even boldly says that she believes in the Conservative values espoused in the 2019 election and is only leaving because "The elected Prime Minister was ousted in a coup led by the unelected Rishi Sunak" - she's literally a Boris Johnson stan.

Why on earth is Starmer entertaining her? I mean, I know why, because he wants the short-term boost of nicking another MP, and the long-term boost of showing himself to be "safe to vote for" to Telegraph and Sun readers because he's so moderate that even right wingers will join him. However, gods only know what the existing Labour candidate for Dover, who was likely a shoo-in, thinks of being asked to stand aside for this utter belter. Surely she'll just defect back once the election is done and Sunak is ousted?


Edited to add: It appears she's not going to stand in the next election regardless, which does make it slightly less wild for Starmer to bring her in. However, it is startling that Diane Abbott is persona non-grata, while this is welcomed with open arms:

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm However, gods only know what the existing Labour candidate for Dover, who was likely a shoo-in, thinks of being asked to stand aside for this utter belter.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm Anyone else utterly confused by Natalie Elphicke crossing the divide to join Labour? I mean, I get it from a her perspective as a self-preservation tactic, but she's a hard-right nutter whom I'd've expected to defect to Reform before Labour. Her statement even boldly says that she believes in the Conservative values espoused in the 2019 election and is only leaving because "The elected Prime Minister was ousted in a coup led by the unelected Rishi Sunak" - she's literally a Boris Johnson stan.

Why on earth is Starmer entertaining her? I mean, I know why, because he wants the short-term boost of nicking another MP, and the long-term boost of showing himself to be "safe to vote for" to Telegraph and Sun readers because he's so moderate that even right wingers will join him. However, gods only know what the existing Labour candidate for Dover, who was likely a shoo-in, thinks of being asked to stand aside for this utter belter. Surely she'll just defect back once the election is done and Sunak is ousted?


Edited to add: It appears she's not going to stand in the next election regardless, which does make it slightly less wild for Starmer to bring her in. However, it is startling that Diane Abbott is persona non-grata, while this is welcomed with open arms:


Puja

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 8:24 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm However, gods only know what the existing Labour candidate for Dover, who was likely a shoo-in, thinks of being asked to stand aside for this utter belter.

Why on earth would he have to stand aside?
Her defecting to labour and standing down as an MP does not mean that the incumbent candidate doesn't get to stand.
Even if she wasn't standing down as an MP, that doesn't mean that the local labour party have to choose her as their candidate over their incumbent.

Generally, though, I agree, she'd absolutely be happier in Reform than Labour.
As for why Kier would allow her in - you mentioned it yourself, to choose that labour is a "safe space" for defecting tories - MPs and voters.

Of course, you and I as leftie snowflakes, are going to be unhappy about this. It would still take a LOT more than this to convince me to vote for whoever is most likely to unseat my local tory twat (and he really is a twat)

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm Anyone else utterly confused by Natalie Elphicke crossing the divide to join Labour?

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 5:46 pm From my point of view, it's disgraceful.

From a neutral point of view, it indicates that Starmer is closer to the far right than the far left, also probably that he's right of centre. The evidence points that way.

So, roll up, right wingers, Labour is no longer a left wing party, it's safe to vote for! (Except that you can't actually believe a word Starmer says.)

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 8:24 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm However, gods only know what the existing Labour candidate for Dover, who was likely a shoo-in, thinks of being asked to stand aside for this utter belter.

Why on earth would he have to stand aside?
Her defecting to labour and standing down as an MP does not mean that the incumbent candidate doesn't get to stand.
Even if she wasn't standing down as an MP, that doesn't mean that the local labour party have to choose her as their candidate over their incumbent.

Generally, though, I agree, she'd absolutely be happier in Reform than Labour.
As for why Kier would allow her in - you mentioned it yourself, to choose that labour is a "safe space" for defecting tories - MPs and voters.

Of course, you and I as leftie snowflakes, are going to be unhappy about this. It would still take a LOT more than this to convince me to vote for whoever is most likely to unseat my local tory twat (and he really is a twat)

I had assumed she was defecting to be the Labour incumbent for Dover - didn't realise she was standing down next election until my edit.

I don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Puja

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:08 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pm

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 8:24 pm

Why on earth would he have to stand aside?
Her defecting to labour and standing down as an MP does not mean that the incumbent candidate doesn't get to stand.
Even if she wasn't standing down as an MP, that doesn't mean that the local labour party have to choose her as their candidate over their incumbent.

Generally, though, I agree, she'd absolutely be happier in Reform than Labour.
As for why Kier would allow her in - you mentioned it yourself, to choose that labour is a "safe space" for defecting tories - MPs and voters.

Of course, you and I as leftie snowflakes, are going to be unhappy about this. It would still take a LOT more than this to convince me to vote for whoever is most likely to unseat my local tory twat (and he really is a twat)

I had assumed she was defecting to be the Labour incumbent for Dover - didn't realise she was standing down next election until my edit.

I don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Puja

Edited, as I misunderstood your post, sorry.

Look, she's being used for a couple of months and then cast aside for a proper labour candidate. It not power for powers sake in the slightest, it's pragmatism. Labour tried ideological purity under JC and got beaten by.... well, history tells the story. If Labour are going to do good, they need to be in power. To get into power in a country where the media and vested interests are generally set against them means being pragmatic, that's all.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pm

I had assumed she was defecting to be the Labour incumbent for Dover - didn't realise she was standing down next election until my edit.

I don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Puja

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:42 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pm

I had assumed she was defecting to be the Labour incumbent for Dover - didn't realise she was standing down next election until my edit.

I don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Puja

Edited, as I misunderstood your post, sorry.

Look, she's being used for a couple of months and then cast aside for a proper labour candidate. It not power for powers sake in the slightest, it's pragmatism. Labour tried ideological purity under JC and got beaten by.... well, history tells the story. If Labour are going to do good, they need to be in power. To get into power in a country where the media and vested interests are generally set against them means being pragmatic, that's all.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pmI don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 8:38 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pmI don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Trouble is, this is what happens. You take the victory for granted and vote in objection to both parties, it's way closer than you expect (the right rallies around, the left fragments), and it's a hung parliament, potentially even with conservative as the largest party.

For me (and surely for any leftie) the most pressing issue is getting the conservatives out, and putting them down as much as humanly possible.
For me, an empty suit to score a cheap political point doesn't change that. I'm happy to vote Labour, Lib Dem or Green, whoever stands the best chance of ending Lawrence's political career.

I get feeling disenfranchised by labour (hell, I've never felt enfranchised by any party), I get hating the idea of "the lesser of 2 evils". I've spent almost all of my adult life posting a spoiled ballot for "none of the above" (and still think it should be a genuine option to express dissatisfaction).
But faced with the current tory party, I'll hold my nose and vote for whoever - yes, even Galloway's lot if he was the best bet here.

Zhivago wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 12:35 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 2:04 pm Anyone else utterly confused by Natalie Elphicke crossing the divide to join Labour?

I can sort of understand the desire to put the boot in the Tories, and this is an easy way to do it. These defections might get us an earlier election... The pressure is surely mounting on Sunak.

Strangely enough it reminds me more of the bed hopping in notoriously shite reality TV shows, rather than serious politics. And that's Britain's malaise at the moment, where are the serious politicians??

And there should be a limit on these defections, you can't oust apparent racists on the one hand and then let in racists on the other hand. The integrity of the party will become compromised.

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:42 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pm

I had assumed she was defecting to be the Labour incumbent for Dover - didn't realise she was standing down next election until my edit.

I don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Puja

Edited, as I misunderstood your post, sorry.

Look, she's being used for a couple of months and then cast aside for a proper labour candidate. It not power for powers sake in the slightest, it's pragmatism. Labour tried ideological purity under JC and got beaten by.... well, history tells the story. If Labour are going to do good, they need to be in power. To get into power in a country where the media and vested interests are generally set against them means being pragmatic, that's all.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 8:38 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pmI don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Trouble is, this is what happens. You take the victory for granted and vote in objection to both parties, it's way closer than you expect (the right rallies around, the left fragments), and it's a hung parliament, potentially even with conservative as the largest party.

For me (and surely for any leftie) the most pressing issue is getting the conservatives out, and putting them down as much as humanly possible.
For me, an empty suit to score a cheap political point doesn't change that. I'm happy to vote Labour, Lib Dem or Green, whoever stands the best chance of ending Lawrence's political career.

I get feeling disenfranchised by labour (hell, I've never felt enfranchised by any party), I get hating the idea of "the lesser of 2 evils". I've spent almost all of my adult life posting a spoiled ballot for "none of the above" (and still think it should be a genuine option to express dissatisfaction).
But faced with the current tory party, I'll hold my nose and vote for whoever - yes, even Galloway's lot if he was the best bet here.

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 9:42 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 8:38 am

Puja wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 10:10 pmI don't know it does take more than this for me. If the election was on a knife-edge, then maybe my feelings would be different, but the Tories are going out no matter what anyone does, and I just can't vote for Labour right now. What is voting for Labour even for at this point if racist, anti-union, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights Conservatives are cheerfully welcomed because it's politically savvy? What are they, but an empty suit?

As things stand, I'm voting Green. It will accomplish little to nothing, especially in my area, but I can't countenance supporting the "Power for power's sake" party.

Trouble is, this is what happens. You take the victory for granted and vote in objection to both parties, it's way closer than you expect (the right rallies around, the left fragments), and it's a hung parliament, potentially even with conservative as the largest party.

For me (and surely for any leftie) the most pressing issue is getting the conservatives out, and putting them down as much as humanly possible.
For me, an empty suit to score a cheap political point doesn't change that. I'm happy to vote Labour, Lib Dem or Green, whoever stands the best chance of ending Lawrence's political career.

I get feeling disenfranchised by labour (hell, I've never felt enfranchised by any party), I get hating the idea of "the lesser of 2 evils". I've spent almost all of my adult life posting a spoiled ballot for "none of the above" (and still think it should be a genuine option to express dissatisfaction).
But faced with the current tory party, I'll hold my nose and vote for whoever - yes, even Galloway's lot if he was the best bet here.

I make the same argument regarding Trump. You might not agree with Biden on an issue, but consider the alternative.

The Conservatives have turned a long way to the right and are no longer a competent government. Change means Starmer and as someone who has never voted Labour in my life, I will happily do so in order to vote tactically and try to get the local conservative out. Time to look at the bigger picture. This country needs competent government and to stop being a laughing stock. If that means some compromise then I'm all for it, provided we get this zombie government out. I regard that as being more important than being dogmatic about ideology.

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:02 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 5:46 pm From my point of view, it's disgraceful.

From a neutral point of view, it indicates that Starmer is closer to the far right than the far left, also probably that he's right of centre. The evidence points that way.

So, roll up, right wingers, Labour is no longer a left wing party, it's safe to vote for! (Except that you can't actually believe a word Starmer says.)

It might well be disgraceful but will you please stop with the rest off this shit? It indicates absolutely nothing about Starmers politics. Coming out with crap like this makes me think you would actually prefer a Conservative govt to a Labour one.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:06 pm

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:02 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 5:46 pm From my point of view, it's disgraceful.

From a neutral point of view, it indicates that Starmer is closer to the far right than the far left, also probably that he's right of centre. The evidence points that way.

So, roll up, right wingers, Labour is no longer a left wing party, it's safe to vote for! (Except that you can't actually believe a word Starmer says.)

It might well be disgraceful but will you please stop with the rest off this shit? It indicates absolutely nothing about Starmers politics. Coming out with crap like this makes me think you would actually prefer a Conservative govt to a Labour one.

Calm down, buddy.

It indicates either that Starmer is more comfortable with the far right than the far left, or that he has little in the way of political convictions (or both). Either of these options is worrying.

Ignoring what this says about Starmer's politics, in the short-term, he presumably thinks this will gain him more in right of centre reporting & votes than he will lose in left of centre reporing and votes. Who knows if this is the short-term vote maximiser? It will cut both ways. I'm not sure any prospective centre-right voters will really believe it . . . and anyway if they like Elphicke's views, they're probably further to the right and unlikely to shift from Tory or Reform UK. It will lose some centre-left and maybe centre votes to the Greens and the LibDems. Overall effect - who knows? And in an election where the outcome is not really in doubt at this stage.

It's the longer-term price to be paid for this potential short-term gain that worries me. It (together with many other positions) will erode the Labour voting base. I don't honestly think it will gain much from the right of centre voters because they will always go back to the Tories, if not Reform UK. But what it does to the whole political scene is worrying. It legitimises Elphicke's views, which is the last thing we need. And it looks weak, optimistic and unprincipled - which is not a good look. Is there no one the Labour party wouldn't take on?

Stom wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 10:26 pmAlso remember something important... "liberals" are not Labour's core vote. Never have been. Working class voters are. And that's who Starmer is appealing to. Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's not Labour's core vote. If Labour can take Brexit Britain votes back from the Tories after we had years of intellectual liberal Labour leaders doing sweet FA, he's going to destroy the Tory party as it is. Because the Tories have lost a huge portion of their core vote thanks to Covid, Brexit, and the shrinking of the middle classes. Take away that traditional Labour voter who went blue for Brexit and...damn.

So, no, I don't think this means much at all. Starmer is playing a very clear and very understandable game. It's just that you're not his target audience.

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:06 pm

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:02 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 5:46 pm From my point of view, it's disgraceful.

From a neutral point of view, it indicates that Starmer is closer to the far right than the far left, also probably that he's right of centre. The evidence points that way.

So, roll up, right wingers, Labour is no longer a left wing party, it's safe to vote for! (Except that you can't actually believe a word Starmer says.)

It might well be disgraceful but will you please stop with the rest off this shit? It indicates absolutely nothing about Starmers politics. Coming out with crap like this makes me think you would actually prefer a Conservative govt to a Labour one.

Calm down, buddy.

It indicates either that Starmer is more comfortable with the far right than the far left, or that he has little in the way of political convictions (or both). Either of these options is worrying.

Ignoring what this says about Starmer's politics, in the short-term, he presumably thinks this will gain him more in right of centre reporting & votes than he will lose in left of centre reporing and votes. Who knows if this is the short-term vote maximiser? It will cut both ways. I'm not sure any prospective centre-right voters will really believe it . . . and anyway if they like Elphicke's views, they're probably further to the right and unlikely to shift from Tory or Reform UK. It will lose some centre-left and maybe centre votes to the Greens and the LibDems. Overall effect - who knows? And in an election where the outcome is not really in doubt at this stage.

It's the longer-term price to be paid for this potential short-term gain that worries me. It (together with many other positions) will erode the Labour voting base. I don't honestly think it will gain much from the right of centre voters because they will always go back to the Tories, if not Reform UK. But what it does to the whole political scene is worrying. It legitimises Elphicke's views, which is the last thing we need. And it looks weak, optimistic and unprincipled - which is not a good look. Is there no one the Labour party wouldn't take on?

Stom wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 10:26 pm
Also remember something important... "liberals" are not Labour's core vote. Never have been. Working class voters are. And that's who Starmer is appealing to. Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's not Labour's core vote. If Labour can take Brexit Britain votes back from the Tories after we had years of intellectual liberal Labour leaders doing sweet FA, he's going to destroy the Tory party as it is. Because the Tories have lost a huge portion of their core vote thanks to Covid, Brexit, and the shrinking of the middle classes. Take away that traditional Labour voter who went blue for Brexit and...damn.