RugbyRebels

Still we have to remember recent eras when we would have played that poorly and lost. Generally I'm optimistic. Well more so than say a couple of world cups ago

It's going to be an important 12 months. There is a really broad spectrum of possibilities in the next year from solid 6N and a WC QF to Toony being under pressure to keep his job (5th or 6th in 6N and going out in group of WC).

I've also got concerns about how many RWC warm ups we've got organised - a whopping 4. After an extra out-of-window test this autumn some of our guys are going to be cream crackered.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:I've also got concerns about how many RWC warm ups we've got organised - a whopping 4. After an extra out-of-window test this autumn some of our guys are going to be cream crackered.

Yeah we’ve swung from being in a position where we need to look at depth to accepting we’ve got a decent first XV and just needing them to be 100% fit, on form and in sync to make an impression against the best sides.

We seem to struggle to maintain intensity in important games, let alone slogging our way through 4 warm-ups.

We don’t appear any closer to solving our issues at 1, 8, 9, 12. Why was Strauss taken off? Why did we not have a remotely meaningful look at Horne? Is anyone going to stand up at 1 or 12?

How’s that Stafford McDowell hype train chugging along?

Dell is clearly the best loosehead available. I don't think he did a great deal wrong at all

There were 4 warm ups last time too. France, Ireland and Italyx2. These games are pre squad announcement so will see alot of the back ups play in some.

They are effectively pre season friendlies.

Big D wrote:Dell is clearly the best loosehead available. I don't think he did a great deal wrong at all

There were 4 warm ups last time too. France, Ireland and Italyx2. These games are pre squad announcement so will see alot of the back ups play in some.

They are effectively pre season friendlies.

He's small & underpowered which is why he often struggles at scrum time and is a poor tackler - he's been awful defensively this series. His size limits our carrying options as well.

I'd take the second choice LH from any other home nation - we have a problem. I suspect the hope was that Kebble would take over after Dicko but his early retirement has thrown a spanner in the works.

What was made of Reid? Was it just that 50 minutes vs SA this Autumn? Seems strange not to give him a bit more time if he’s still considered a viable option.

Mikey Brown wrote:What was made of Reid? Was it just that 50 minutes vs SA this Autumn? Seems strange not to give him a bit more time if he’s still considered a viable option.

He was ok in the scrum, but play appeared to overtake him a little in the loose. Not sure on Dell in the scrum - I’ll defer to someone in the front row union on that. However, he was present more in the loose, even if he was occasionally a dart that didn’t stick at close quarters, to borrow a BVC analogy. That didn’t make him unique amongst our pack this autumn though.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/46329294

Bit of discussion from Tam English about our back row and break down issues. 12.6 turnovers conceded per match is shocking. I don't think it's as simple as just missing Barclay. I'd be surprised if he makes it back in time for the 6N, even if he does he'll surely be a bit behind the pace.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:

Big D wrote:Dell is clearly the best loosehead available. I don't think he did a great deal wrong at all

There were 4 warm ups last time too. France, Ireland and Italyx2. These games are pre squad announcement so will see alot of the back ups play in some.

They are effectively pre season friendlies.

He's small & underpowered which is why he often struggles at scrum time and is a poor tackler - he's been awful defensively this series. His size limits our carrying options as well.

I'd take the second choice LH from any other home nation - we have a problem. I suspect the hope was that Kebble would take over after Dicko but his early retirement has thrown a spanner in the works.

Never said we didn't have a problem there. Dell is still the best option available. We know he is small, the heavy LHP in the squad struggled at scrum time too. As did our Thi

There's a clear difference between "didn't do a lot wrong" me thinking he's a great loosehead. He was no more and no less than average. Which is still better than Reid, Allan and Bhatti for now. Sutherland can't displace him at Edinburgh so isn't going to for Scotland. Marfo not even called up from prem rugby this year.

With what he have available right now a LHP that does ok in the scrum, makes his tackles (think he missed 4 or 5 all autumn) and hits rucks is the best we can do for now.

If we want to criticise carrying I am on board with that. Last autumn we wanted to be the "fastest team" and all our forwards made metres even against NZ. It's mostly the same guys so what's changed.IMO it starts with the coach:
1. Game plan sees the carriers often lined up behind the gain line because of that pish one pass.
2. All the tight 5 have been hopeless at carrying. Possibly in part to 1 above.
3. We now play a 9 who has no threat of a break on him so defenders don't worry about him.
4. Either by game plan or through Laidlaw being Laidlaw even with the ball available it is often too slow. A lot of it has to do with clearing the ruck but when you are hit on/behind the gain line getting quick ball is hard.

Based on AIs, which of our players would start for the Lions?

Maybe Gatland’s not wrong*.




* = he is - I just think we didn’t play well either mentally or physically this time round, possibly due in part to a bit of tactical tombola, but we need to *bring it* in the 6N to actually do something in the championship. Going into the last game with the title to play for would be a start!

General Zod wrote:Based on AIs, which of our players would start for the Lions?

Maybe Gatland’s not wrong*.




* = he is - I just think we didn’t play well either mentally or physically this time round, possibly due in part to a bit of tactical tombola, but we need to *bring it* in the 6N to actually do something in the championship. Going into the last game with the title to play for would be a start!

I don't think we'd have a single player in the 23. It'll be dominated by Ireland & supported by Wales & then England in that order.

When you put it that way it shows how poor our AI series has been performance wise.

Watching it now. This is very dull. Contrary to what some say about us having no plan b, I think we have seen too much of plan b this autumn. We seem to have slowed it right down (sometimes not deliberately but sometimes by gameplan) and therefore lost some spark. It also doesnt play to our forwards' strength as they are a lot better in a looser game.

Tough to judge the backs given the above.

The plus has been the rotation. Skinner and Ritchie have emerged as serious options and Hastings has got some time. Given that and the above 2/4 isnt bad but also pretty uninspiring

I’m just trying to remember a time that a forward took the ball while actually running and didn’t drop it.

As soon as Laidlaw is playing we give up hope of having our right carriers take the ball on the move. We revert to this forward distributor thing which we are seemingly terrible at, or are just trying to do it on the fly because we’re making no ground off static carriers.

I don’t feel like anything else matters a jot if we’re not ever going to attack the defensive line with either backs or forwards.

Mikey Brown wrote:I’m just trying to remember a time that a forward took the ball while actually running and didn’t drop it.

As soon as Laidlaw is playing we give up hope of having our right carriers take the ball on the move. We revert to this forward distributor thing which we are seemingly terrible at, or are just trying to do it on the fly because we’re making no ground off static carriers.

I don’t feel like anything else matters a jot if we’re not ever going to attack the defensive line with either backs or forwards.

I seem to remember forwards making little offloads that shifted the point of attack last year. This was especially effective for someone like Mcinally. We seem less ambitious this year.

However conditions yesterday certainly mitigated against this and against Fiji it probably wasn't the way to play. The Welsh performance was bad however and we were beat up pretty bad by South Africa up front.

I’ve also seen ya giving up the forwards offloading, for me it’s been one of the big problems with Toony, Cotter recognized our issues so the changing point of contact was designed to prevent us getting turned over constantly. Now we just take the ball up in the forwards or pass to a back running behind.

We really need another a runner either side of them to hold the defenders and then give the loop runner a chance at finding space.

Too y has experimented enough now, for me to much. He now needs to pick his top 2-3 in every position and give the guys enough time to gel. It just feels like toony can’t decide on who is his best backs and a year out from the WC this is becoming a big issue.

Yeah, if you look at the attacking line off slow ball it’s always 45 degrees, nobody even offering a hint of a threat at the gainline wider out to make any passing moves behind even slightly move believable.

Then oddly enough on the occasion we get fast ball they all stand perfectly flat on the advantage line allowing nobody any room to take the ball at speed. It’s infuriating, and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Laidlaw was injured most of last year.

No comments on the lineout? It's been the worst of the top tier nations for quite some time now. Not just statistically but also in terms of losing our own throws in either promising attacking positions and on occasion own 22 defensive throws.

Seems to be a combination of poor throwing, bad communication and poor lifting.

hugh_woatmeigh wrote:No comments on the lineout? It's been the worst of the top tier nations for quite some time now. Not just statistically but also in terms of losing our own throws in either promising attacking positions and on occasion own 22 defensive throws.

Seems to be a combination of poor throwing, bad communication and poor lifting.

It hasn't been amazing or terrible IMO. 4 lost in this autumn with a couple other won but not as intended. The one Rambo lost on Saturday is on Gray or GG. Who the fuck calls a tail ball in the wet when your hooker is just on?

Feels like Rambo is better at throwing than Brown but that's just a gut feel.

Im ready to call it, if Toonie doesnt get a semi final or 4 wins i think he needs to be moved on.

Im usually one of the last on here to turn on the coaches but

1 - It feels tooney doesnt know his best 15
He doesnt know his best back row, second row or centres: He has had a year now and he just keeps experimenting , never backing the guys , it feels like some of our issues is that the guys have to adapt to playing with different players.

In second row he doesnt know his first choice pairing and just feels that JG is there even though the best combination we need is a bit of toughness and that means GG and SS

In back row he is still going for players to light to win any breakdown, An AI down and it looked like his entire strategy was Blade Thomson, when that fell through Straus came in had good impact off the bench and then did his ususal and disapeared

In centres nobody has any idea who the best 12 is

2 - Forwards have went backwards - The offloading and popping before contact to prevent us getting dominated in the breakdown has been completly removed and replaced with guys running into contact and then a hope that 1 man can clear out the 2 or 3 men targeting our breakdown. Either you accept that the change means you need to add extra men to the breakdown to guarentee quick ball or you go back to changing the point of contact

3 - He has zero answer to a blitz defence, Argentina, SA, Wales put us into a whole heap of trouble because we dont want to have a big running bastard running down the 10 channel to get quick ball, IN the 6N i dont think we are going to deal with it as neither Wales or Ireland are going to be as easy to beat as last year.

4 - Maul - what maul, all teams need to be able to maul but our maul has no idea what its trying to do , we dont spin it and move it we just get sucked upped and turned over.

5 - Defensive frailties - 4 trys due to bad defence in 4 games

6 - Stupidity of playing out our 22 every time, i get it sometimes work but you need to be willing to change it and rotate what we are trying to do because after 5 - 6 phases a mirricle ball gets passed to someone flat in the line , happy for them to do it but it needs to be weather dependent and the team have to be set up to take advantage of it


I reckon while we are generating exciting tries most weeks and the team is great to watch we still give teams 14 points on us , SA and Wales had nothing until we did something stupid and gave them points

I wonder if Rennie is the insurance option.

There is a nuclear scenario where we win 0/1 Game in the 6N and go out in group stages of RWC. In that case he'd have to go.

whatisthejava wrote:Im ready to call it, if Toonie doesnt get a semi final or 4 wins i think he needs to be moved on.

We certainly need to improve out performances but what? Have you seen our RWC group? Our route to a semi involves a game against Ireland and then one of SA/NZ depending on the outcome of the Ireland game (yes, aware there are other games we have to win also). We are on the side of the draw with the 3 form teams IMO.

As for 4 wins in the 6N - that's some claim considering the home nations are in rude health right now. I'd argue all 4 of us are playing our best rugby in years and years and all four have cut the gap/overtaken some of the SH teams imo. France are no mugs either but still a shadow of their former self.

If after 2 years toonie can’t win his home games and beat the shambles that France is away he is in trouble.

I watched SA over the autumn and they could have lost to France (omnishambles) and us and NZ look like a team on the way down.

3 wins and a quarter final is no advance on 4 years ago

Glasgow and Ed seem capable of mixing it with the top 10 teams in Europe. If The same players can’t go to the next level with a scotlandvtop on it’s time to find someone who can get them there.

whatisthejava wrote:Im ready to call it, if Toonie doesnt get a semi final or 4 wins i think he needs to be moved on.

Im usually one of the last on here to turn on the coaches but

1 - It feels tooney doesnt know his best 15
He doesnt know his best back row, second row or centres: He has had a year now and he just keeps experimenting , never backing the guys , it feels like some of our issues is that the guys have to adapt to playing with different players.

In second row he doesnt know his first choice pairing and just feels that JG is there even though the best combination we need is a bit of toughness and that means GG and SS

In back row he is still going for players to light to win any breakdown, An AI down and it looked like his entire strategy was Blade Thomson, when that fell through Straus came in had good impact off the bench and then did his ususal and disapeared

In centres nobody has any idea who the best 12 is

2 - Forwards have went backwards - The offloading and popping before contact to prevent us getting dominated in the breakdown has been completly removed and replaced with guys running into contact and then a hope that 1 man can clear out the 2 or 3 men targeting our breakdown. Either you accept that the change means you need to add extra men to the breakdown to guarentee quick ball or you go back to changing the point of contact

3 - He has zero answer to a blitz defence, Argentina, SA, Wales put us into a whole heap of trouble because we dont want to have a big running bastard running down the 10 channel to get quick ball, IN the 6N i dont think we are going to deal with it as neither Wales or Ireland are going to be as easy to beat as last year.

4 - Maul - what maul, all teams need to be able to maul but our maul has no idea what its trying to do , we dont spin it and move it we just get sucked upped and turned over.

5 - Defensive frailties - 4 trys due to bad defence in 4 games

6 - Stupidity of playing out our 22 every time, i get it sometimes work but you need to be willing to change it and rotate what we are trying to do because after 5 - 6 phases a mirricle ball gets passed to someone flat in the line , happy for them to do it but it needs to be weather dependent and the team have to be set up to take advantage of it


I reckon while we are generating exciting tries most weeks and the team is great to watch we still give teams 14 points on us , SA and Wales had nothing until we did something stupid and gave them points

Java you ginormous fud.

Joe Schmidt had been in the Ireland job two years when he took Ireland to the 2015 RWC and they got annihilated by RGs in the QF. That turned out fairly well in the end...

Reality is we have a bang average pack - lots of pretty good players but none that would get into any of the Wales, Irish or England teams with the exception of McInally (though needs to be more consistent), and perhaps Watson (though he wouldn’t get into the Welsh or Irish teams) or a for Barclay. There is no domination on the gain line. When did we last see one of our lot truly smash the opposition in the tackle or going forward make consistent yards carrying ball?