RugbyRebels

Big D wrote:I wonder if Rennie is the insurance option.

There is a nuclear scenario where we win 0/1 Game in the 6N and go out in group stages of RWC. In that case he'd have to go.

Vern cotter got whitewashed in his first 6N - including a truly horrendous home loss to Italy

ARM wrote:

Big D wrote:I wonder if Rennie is the insurance option.

There is a nuclear scenario where we win 0/1 Game in the 6N and go out in group stages of RWC. In that case he'd have to go.

Vern cotter got whitewashed in his first 6N - including a truly horrendous home loss to Italy

And he was still rightfully criticised.

Townsend has over seen a piss poor loss to Fiji and an embarrassment against the USA that would have seen VC hounded. He can't keep hiding behind squad rotation.

As it stands we are not playing better rugby than when the VC/RG/JOH group got punted.

Scotland were playing good stuff in VCs last 6N with JOH as backs coach and beginning to build nicely to the RWC. We are no further forward from when they were sacked.

To get whitewashed in the 6N in WC year and go out in the group stages of the WC would be complete failure and far outweigh a whitewash in VCs 1st 6N.

ARM wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Im ready to call it, if Toonie doesnt get a semi final or 4 wins i think he needs to be moved on.

Im usually one of the last on here to turn on the coaches but

1 - It feels tooney doesnt know his best 15
He doesnt know his best back row, second row or centres: He has had a year now and he just keeps experimenting , never backing the guys , it feels like some of our issues is that the guys have to adapt to playing with different players.

In second row he doesnt know his first choice pairing and just feels that JG is there even though the best combination we need is a bit of toughness and that means GG and SS

In back row he is still going for players to light to win any breakdown, An AI down and it looked like his entire strategy was Blade Thomson, when that fell through Straus came in had good impact off the bench and then did his ususal and disapeared

In centres nobody has any idea who the best 12 is

2 - Forwards have went backwards - The offloading and popping before contact to prevent us getting dominated in the breakdown has been completly removed and replaced with guys running into contact and then a hope that 1 man can clear out the 2 or 3 men targeting our breakdown. Either you accept that the change means you need to add extra men to the breakdown to guarentee quick ball or you go back to changing the point of contact

3 - He has zero answer to a blitz defence, Argentina, SA, Wales put us into a whole heap of trouble because we dont want to have a big running bastard running down the 10 channel to get quick ball, IN the 6N i dont think we are going to deal with it as neither Wales or Ireland are going to be as easy to beat as last year.

4 - Maul - what maul, all teams need to be able to maul but our maul has no idea what its trying to do , we dont spin it and move it we just get sucked upped and turned over.

5 - Defensive frailties - 4 trys due to bad defence in 4 games

6 - Stupidity of playing out our 22 every time, i get it sometimes work but you need to be willing to change it and rotate what we are trying to do because after 5 - 6 phases a mirricle ball gets passed to someone flat in the line , happy for them to do it but it needs to be weather dependent and the team have to be set up to take advantage of it


I reckon while we are generating exciting tries most weeks and the team is great to watch we still give teams 14 points on us , SA and Wales had nothing until we did something stupid and gave them points

Java you ginormous fud.

Joe Schmidt had been in the Ireland job two years when he took Ireland to the 2015 RWC and they got annihilated by RGs in the QF. That turned out fairly well in the end...

Reality is we have a bang average pack - lots of pretty good players but none that would get into any of the Wales, Irish or England teams with the exception of McInally (though needs to be more consistent), and perhaps Watson (though he wouldn’t get into the Welsh or Irish teams) or a for Barclay. There is no domination on the gain line. When did we last see one of our lot truly smash the opposition in the tackle or going forward make consistent yards carrying ball?

When the game plan involves deliberately giving it to a forward yards behind the gain line to pass to another further behind the gain line then is it a size problem or a coaching issue?

Jonny Gray was the biggest lock on the pitch at kick off v SA.

We had the bigger pack last week v Argentina.

ARM wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Im ready to call it, if Toonie doesnt get a semi final or 4 wins i think he needs to be moved on.

Im usually one of the last on here to turn on the coaches but

1 - It feels tooney doesnt know his best 15
He doesnt know his best back row, second row or centres: He has had a year now and he just keeps experimenting , never backing the guys , it feels like some of our issues is that the guys have to adapt to playing with different players.

In second row he doesnt know his first choice pairing and just feels that JG is there even though the best combination we need is a bit of toughness and that means GG and SS

In back row he is still going for players to light to win any breakdown, An AI down and it looked like his entire strategy was Blade Thomson, when that fell through Straus came in had good impact off the bench and then did his ususal and disapeared

In centres nobody has any idea who the best 12 is

2 - Forwards have went backwards - The offloading and popping before contact to prevent us getting dominated in the breakdown has been completly removed and replaced with guys running into contact and then a hope that 1 man can clear out the 2 or 3 men targeting our breakdown. Either you accept that the change means you need to add extra men to the breakdown to guarentee quick ball or you go back to changing the point of contact

3 - He has zero answer to a blitz defence, Argentina, SA, Wales put us into a whole heap of trouble because we dont want to have a big running bastard running down the 10 channel to get quick ball, IN the 6N i dont think we are going to deal with it as neither Wales or Ireland are going to be as easy to beat as last year.

4 - Maul - what maul, all teams need to be able to maul but our maul has no idea what its trying to do , we dont spin it and move it we just get sucked upped and turned over.

5 - Defensive frailties - 4 trys due to bad defence in 4 games

6 - Stupidity of playing out our 22 every time, i get it sometimes work but you need to be willing to change it and rotate what we are trying to do because after 5 - 6 phases a mirricle ball gets passed to someone flat in the line , happy for them to do it but it needs to be weather dependent and the team have to be set up to take advantage of it


I reckon while we are generating exciting tries most weeks and the team is great to watch we still give teams 14 points on us , SA and Wales had nothing until we did something stupid and gave them points

Java you ginormous fud.

Joe Schmidt had been in the Ireland job two years when he took Ireland to the 2015 RWC and they got annihilated by RGs in the QF. That turned out fairly well in the end...

Reality is we have a bang average pack - lots of pretty good players but none that would get into any of the Wales, Irish or England teams with the exception of McInally (though needs to be more consistent), and perhaps Watson (though he wouldn’t get into the Welsh or Irish teams) or a for Barclay. There is no domination on the gain line. When did we last see one of our lot truly smash the opposition in the tackle or going forward make consistent yards carrying ball?

Your arguments would stack up if our top players were not beating the same welsh players and Irish players throughout the regular season.

Pre lions we had a fair shout at a dent amount of players being at least 50/50. Now hardly any even though Edinburgh are night and day better and both in with a greater than 50/50 chance of making the last 8 in Europe.

Glasgow went toe to toe with sarries earlier this year, Ed went toe to toe with Montpellier all in the pack so it’s a coaching decision to not generate quick ball. Sooner or later Toonie has to stop the endless tombola or we need a coach that’s building for something.

For me Scotland are going backwards.

I normally think we are quite sensible on this board burg this is next level. Townsend is just over a year into the job with over a 50% win ratio and three wins in his only 6N against one of the strongest NH fields ever and now if we doesn't beat the world number 2 team at home he needs to be sacked?!

This is all coming off the back of an AI series in which we lost to the teams ranked above us and lost to the ones below us. Aye, I hoped for more but the negativity here is bizarre. And before you say it, I agree that Cotter was doing a good job and wasnt keen on him being let go albeit I could see the reasoning with Townsend lined up. If we take winning more than three games in the 6N as the minimum we better get the pipeline of coaches sorted out quick as we will need a new one most years

And this is based on our two pro teams "competing" with the top ten in Europe. I don't know how that is meant to translate is us having the players to dominate. In fact, given the performance of Edinburgh and Glasgow who have one semi and one quarter between them ever then the fact that Scotland now goes into games (at least home ones) against anyone confident of a win is good going.

And these pro teams competing with the best have each won one out of two in the ECC and Edinburgh are firmly mid table in their conference.

whatisthejava wrote:

ARM wrote:

whatisthejava wrote:Im ready to call it, if Toonie doesnt get a semi final or 4 wins i think he needs to be moved on.

Im usually one of the last on here to turn on the coaches but

1 - It feels tooney doesnt know his best 15
He doesnt know his best back row, second row or centres: He has had a year now and he just keeps experimenting , never backing the guys , it feels like some of our issues is that the guys have to adapt to playing with different players.

In second row he doesnt know his first choice pairing and just feels that JG is there even though the best combination we need is a bit of toughness and that means GG and SS

In back row he is still going for players to light to win any breakdown, An AI down and it looked like his entire strategy was Blade Thomson, when that fell through Straus came in had good impact off the bench and then did his ususal and disapeared

In centres nobody has any idea who the best 12 is

2 - Forwards have went backwards - The offloading and popping before contact to prevent us getting dominated in the breakdown has been completly removed and replaced with guys running into contact and then a hope that 1 man can clear out the 2 or 3 men targeting our breakdown. Either you accept that the change means you need to add extra men to the breakdown to guarentee quick ball or you go back to changing the point of contact

3 - He has zero answer to a blitz defence, Argentina, SA, Wales put us into a whole heap of trouble because we dont want to have a big running bastard running down the 10 channel to get quick ball, IN the 6N i dont think we are going to deal with it as neither Wales or Ireland are going to be as easy to beat as last year.

4 - Maul - what maul, all teams need to be able to maul but our maul has no idea what its trying to do , we dont spin it and move it we just get sucked upped and turned over.

5 - Defensive frailties - 4 trys due to bad defence in 4 games

6 - Stupidity of playing out our 22 every time, i get it sometimes work but you need to be willing to change it and rotate what we are trying to do because after 5 - 6 phases a mirricle ball gets passed to someone flat in the line , happy for them to do it but it needs to be weather dependent and the team have to be set up to take advantage of it


I reckon while we are generating exciting tries most weeks and the team is great to watch we still give teams 14 points on us , SA and Wales had nothing until we did something stupid and gave them points

Java you ginormous fud.

Joe Schmidt had been in the Ireland job two years when he took Ireland to the 2015 RWC and they got annihilated by RGs in the QF. That turned out fairly well in the end...

Reality is we have a bang average pack - lots of pretty good players but none that would get into any of the Wales, Irish or England teams with the exception of McInally (though needs to be more consistent), and perhaps Watson (though he wouldn’t get into the Welsh or Irish teams) or a for Barclay. There is no domination on the gain line. When did we last see one of our lot truly smash the opposition in the tackle or going forward make consistent yards carrying ball?

Your arguments would stack up if our top players were not beating the same welsh players and Irish players throughout the regular season.

Pre lions we had a fair shout at a dent amount of players being at least 50/50. Now hardly any even though Edinburgh are night and day better and both in with a greater than 50/50 chance of making the last 8 in Europe.

Glasgow went toe to toe with sarries earlier this year, Ed went toe to toe with Montpellier all in the pack so it’s a coaching decision to not generate quick ball. Sooner or later Toonie has to stop the endless tombola or we need a coach that’s building for something.

For me Scotland are going backwards.

Have you seen Edinbugh play this year? They are the masters of creating slow ball and their two best forwards have been NSQ.

I get why people dont like the rotation but it makes no sense to see it as a sign of not building. He is clearly trying to build a squad with options both for when rotation is needed (injuries and wc) and so he can play different ways.

In fact, I think we could name very close to his first choice team

Fagerson (/Nel probs benching but may be other way round)
McInally
Dell
Gray
Gray
Barclay (though he had to look at other options this AI and Ritchie has impressed with Bradbury unlucky)
Wilson (though he wanted to look at Thompson)
Laidlaw
Russell
Maitland
Horne (this is the hardest pick but he seems to generally prefer him)
Jones
Seymour
Hogg

We had 4 games in a row in the AI. It was very clear from the outset that we wouldnt be playing a first choice team throughout. Like it or not, that doesnt show we are not building, it shows townsend has a plan. I have some of the same concerns as you about our weaknesses but doesnt mean they are all easy fixes.

And if you want the easy argument, we are now takeb much more seriously than a few years ago and teams have specific plans to counter us.

And (sorry for a final post) Glasgow went toe to toe with Sarries but didnt score a try or get quick ball and didnt get as close as Scotland have come to NZ and SA in the last year

Lots of opinions on our frustrating Autumn games and plenty on Laidlaw......so I'll add mine.

The forwards have been under par no question. Injuries and selection played a part but then they always do. There should still be an underlying sense of purpose and unless we were trying a more direct, low risk game and it just needs more time, it was hard to detect what our goal was at times. We've forgotten (or discarded) what we were good at and looked to be playing by numbers irrespective of the outcome.

Rotation is fine, it's what the AI's are for. There will come a time for a settled team (and some luck with injuries) so I hope GT doesn't now pick one then refuse to change it if it doesn't work due to the demand for consistency in selection!

Although lots of things have to work in unison for a rugby team to function making it difficult to identify any one player as a weak link in any particular game, scrum half is one of the more influential positions.

They are the heart-beat of the team dictating the tempo and this Autumn we have barely had either. The tempo was pedestrian and the change-up non-existent (and left sitting on the bench v Argentina). The winning & losing of the final game was entirely down to Argentina. We had little material impact on the result.
That's not game management, it's lucky. Would you put money on Scotland defending a one score lead in the World Cup thus passing up the chance of another glorious failure? Thought not.

Laidlaw undoubtedly has game management abilities but in a Scotland context we are rarely in the position to dictate the terms of the play and manage the game. Passing (slowly) to pods of forwards and box kicking isn't game management. It's a limited scrum half skill set. Unless tap dancing witb the ball at every ruck counts as a MOTM contribution.
Recognising where and how we need to play and then influencing and driving the team to that end is what is required of a scrum half and more so, the captain. If you can't facilitate that form 9 then you shouldn't be the hand brake on rest of the team.

Wales and South Africa put up a wall and said "go on then". If the ref isn't going to penalise players no matter how much you moan at them then you have to influence the game yourself.
Horne (this year) and Price (last year) have the ability to effect change. Sometimes adversely but also in our favour. At the very least it breaks up the pattern and forces the opposition out of their comfort zone. Rinse and repeat from Laidlaw holds no such fear for them

Easy to write off as Laidlaw bashing, but he is Captain and one of the most experienced players so responsibility on field performance largely stops with him. No one should be exempt form criticism despite the "everyone's fault but no one to blame" of modern analysis.

I feel like not getting a look at Thomson and all options at 12 was a big blow to Townsend’s plan. Still being without Richie Gray and an improved Bradbury at 6 was a shame too.

But we still seem to be shying away from the problems that most opposition teams can see a mile off, and Gatland will come straight out and say to our faces (then win).

Does GT have his hands tied with the players available? I still think we’re so disjointed and inaccurate in our attempts to do the fast, free-flowing thing.

af73 wrote:Lots of opinions on our frustrating Autumn games and plenty on Laidlaw......so I'll add mine.

The forwards have been under par no question. Injuries and selection played a part but then they always do. There should still be an underlying sense of purpose and unless we were trying a more direct, low risk game and it just needs more time, it was hard to detect what our goal was at times. We've forgotten (or discarded) what we were good at and looked to be playing by numbers irrespective of the outcome.

Rotation is fine, it's what the AI's are for. There will come a time for a settled team (and some luck with injuries) so I hope GT doesn't now pick one then refuse to change it if it doesn't work due to the demand for consistency in selection!

Although lots of things have to work in unison for a rugby team to function making it difficult to identify any one player as a weak link in any particular game, scrum half is one of the more influential positions.

They are the heart-beat of the team dictating the tempo and this Autumn we have barely had either. The tempo was pedestrian and the change-up non-existent (and left sitting on the bench v Argentina). The winning & losing of the final game was entirely down to Argentina. We had little material impact on the result.
That's not game management, it's lucky. Would you put money on Scotland defending a one score lead in the World Cup thus passing up the chance of another glorious failure? Thought not.

Laidlaw undoubtedly has game management abilities but in a Scotland context we are rarely in the position to dictate the terms of the play and manage the game. Passing (slowly) to pods of forwards and box kicking isn't game management. It's a limited scrum half skill set. Unless tap dancing witb the ball at every ruck counts as a MOTM contribution.
Recognising where and how we need to play and then influencing and driving the team to that end is what is required of a scrum half and more so, the captain. If you can't facilitate that form 9 then you shouldn't be the hand brake on rest of the team.

Wales and South Africa put up a wall and said "go on then". If the ref isn't going to penalise players no matter how much you moan at them then you have to influence the game yourself.
Horne (this year) and Price (last year) have the ability to effect change. Sometimes adversely but also in our favour. At the very least it breaks up the pattern and forces the opposition out of their comfort zone. Rinse and repeat from Laidlaw holds no such fear for them

Easy to write off as Laidlaw bashing, but he is Captain and one of the most experienced players so responsibility on field performance largely stops with him. No one should be exempt form criticism despite the "everyone's fault but no one to blame" of modern analysis.

Price had the chance to really stake his claim as our main man at 9, then completely folded in Cardiff and I still don't think he's fully recovered. So we look to "Mr Safe" even though he doesn't fit the style Toony wants to play at all.

On to Johnny Gray.......the guy is a pussy. He's huge with absolutely no aggression. He seems like the kind of guy that you could go up to in a pub, take a drink from his pint and then ask "what you going to do about it", he'd just shrug and say "fair enough". He just flops around every game making weak tackles that have somehow helped build this reputation as some sort of defensive colossus. I'm not saying his tackles aren't important but he should be thundering in to people in attack and defence. He needs a fire lit under his arse.

Every team we come up against that uses a blitz defence must be licking their lips. We are clueless when we come up against it.

Very well said on Laidlaw. I missed that when I posted my response. The team absolutely requires some control and a few calm-heads but I think because we’re so desperate for that many overlook the neutering effect he has on the rest of the side.

That image of Laidlaw as the adult with Russell and Hastings on leashes I imagine was meant to show him in a positive light, but it might as well have been Laidlaw having tied their shoe-laces together for all the positive impact it has on the game.

People also love to talk about halfbacks having experience together and knowing each others game. Laidlaw & Russell now have plenty of games together and it couldn’t be clearer they are not on the same wavelength as one moment late on when Russell moves to 10. He’s clearly desperate to get the ball, screaming for it and edging forward to make a run, the ball doesn’t come and he gives up his attempt to take the ball on the move. Finally the ball comes out after a lot of pointing and Russell goes for an outside break that absolutely isn’t on (anymore) and gets turned over.

whatisthejava wrote:Glasgow and Ed seem capable of mixing it with the top 10 teams in Europe. If The same players can’t go to the next level with a scotlandvtop on it’s time to find someone who can get them there.

Glasgow and Edinburgh mix it with the top 10 European teams? In what universe?

I'll give you one thing though, your deluded positivity is certainly needed on this board to counter-balance my hyperbolic negativity.

While I’m at it, Jonny Gray has gone backwards I agree, but I think he’s been overworked and has carried this side at points. There was a point where he was one of the best carriers around at managing to make metres off crap, static ball, something we provide by the bucketload, but you’re absolutely right he doesn’t seem (right now) to have the fire or aggression or whatever you want to call it.

He needs a mix of rest, competition for a spot, and some sort of management of his role in the side. You probably won’t appreciate this comparison but it reminds me of Robshaw a few years ago being asked to be a primary tight carrier as well as playing the forward pivot to release others around him, lead the set-pieces and somehow maintain the energy for relentless, impactful defence. It just isn’t going to happen. And once a player with limited pace is stretched like that you start to see the kind of performances like Saturday.

Do any of you guys think Scotland are improving under Toony compared to VC.

What area are we better
What improvement have we seen since the 6N
How long does he get


I have a funny feeling that we will be sitting here in March with 1 or 2 victories in the 6N

Will beat Italy
Will lose to Ireland and be second best in the forwards - will use the excuse that the Irish forwards dominated us and refused to kick to our back 3,
Will win in France if we dont do something stupid in the 22 around 70 minutes gifting France the ability to scrum us to death in the final 10 - Wait Ive seen this before
Will probably squeak past Wales to gain some self respect
Will lose to England by 10 - 15 but we will blame tiredness and injurues


Will be sitting here in March still wondering the same questions and not being hopeful of the WC

whatisthejava wrote:Do any of you guys think Scotland are improving under Toony compared to VC.

What area are we better - Can't think of any
What improvement have we seen since the 6N - None at all
How long does he get - Probably longer than he should because they got rid of Vern to accommodate him


I have a funny feeling that we will be sitting here in March with 1 or 2 victories in the 6N

Will beat Italy - Most likely
Will lose to Ireland and be second best in the forwards - will use the excuse that the Irish forwards dominated us and refused to kick to our back 3,
Will win in France if we dont do something stupid in the 22 around 70 minutes gifting France the ability to scrum us to death in the final 10 - Wait Ive seen this before - I think we'll lose this one
Will probably squeak past Wales to gain some self respect - Can't see it myself, they are very strong at the moment. I think we'll need to tolerate that smug fat headed prick winning one last time
Will lose to England by 10 - 15 but we will blame tiredness and injurues - They will be desperate to give us a doing


Will be sitting here in March still wondering the same questions and not being hopeful of the WC

I think we'll have a poor 6N and it will be between us and France for 4th and 5th place. Japan will be confident of beating us in front of a home crowd, fuck knows what Samoa will be like but we'll no doubt make them look a lot better than they are. All very cup half empty, or completely empty. Or maybe the poor AI's will be kick up the arse. We've gone in to 6N after a good autumn before and been horrendous, maybe this time it will be the opposite

whatisthejava wrote:Do any of you guys think Scotland are improving under Toony compared to VC.

What area are we better
What improvement have we seen since the 6N
How long does he get


I have a funny feeling that we will be sitting here in March with 1 or 2 victories in the 6N

Will beat Italy
Will lose to Ireland and be second best in the forwards - will use the excuse that the Irish forwards dominated us and refused to kick to our back 3,
Will win in France if we dont do something stupid in the 22 around 70 minutes gifting France the ability to scrum us to death in the final 10 - Wait Ive seen this before
Will probably squeak past Wales to gain some self respect
Will lose to England by 10 - 15 but we will blame tiredness and injurues


Will be sitting here in March still wondering the same questions and not being hopeful of the WC

I am liking this new fiery Java.

We only have 5 proper games before the RWC, the pre WC warm ups are piss about so don't count. He needs to focus on 25-30 names and get a game plan installed.

I think that for all the rotation, injuries and all other issues, the single biggest disappointment is that Townsend has been a HC for 6 years and consistently in big games he has no game plan for physical sides and/or the blitz defence. The game plan this autumn was so basic and static at times that a good club side could have defended it comfortably for periods.

It also feels like Russell is actually more mental with Laidlaw and 9 than he is without him. Russell bar the England game had a very average 6N and his been average in the AI. So is Laidlaw a help or a hindrance?

Where was the invention? The speed of play?

As we’re going all in, here’s mine:

Forwards.

It’s been a truism for years, but we still don’t seem to have picked up on it... whoever wins the contact areas wins the game.

Our pack gets physically dominated. Feck knows why, it’s too easy to put it just down to size, but it seems all too easy for other teams to knock us back in the tackle and dominate contact areas. This seems like a coaching issue.

Where are the ball carriers in the forwards? Why does every other team have any number of forwards who are renowned for stealing ball at ruck time, we have Watson and occasionally whoever is at hooker and no one else. I’m stumped as to what our front five are doing outside of set pieces cos they never ever ever impact on a game, lead from the front, inspire those around them in the way that the front five from Ireland or Wales or England do.

Backs.

More than anything else STOP KICKING THE FUCKING BALL AWAY. TACTICAL KICKING IS BULLSHIT IF ITS JUST AIMLESSLY GIVING POSSESSION AWAY.

Laidlaw is our best scrum half. Yes at times he’s too slow but I think this is down to coaching/game plan. He’s capable of quick play, even does it sometimes. he’s also a leader and world class goal kicker.
Price is worse, I actually can’t watch him play.
GHorne should be getting developed more, I believe he’s our best bet for future, speed of thought and action.

Russell. I have a love/hate thing watching Russell play. He’s so skillful but wastes it time after time. We aren’t going to grow and develop as a team having a maverick in a key role, but then again he’s so far ahead of any other option that we can’t not play him.
Hastings is years away from being intl ready.
Horne is a 12, not a 10, and btw I think he’s our best 12.


Overall, Toonie needs to pick a style and go with it. He also needs time in the job, saying he’s already on a shoogly peg is a bit daft. The best coaches of recent years, Gatland, Hansen, Schmidt, all had years and years of development. As Cameo said, if we’re demanding instant success and immediate improvement, better get the CVs in for the next few candidates right now.

Donny osmond wrote:As we’re going all in, here’s mine:

Forwards.

It’s been a truism for years, but we still don’t seem to have picked up on it... whoever wins the contact areas wins the game.

Our pack gets physically dominated. Feck knows why, it’s too easy to put it just down to size, but it seems all too easy for other teams to knock us back in the tackle and dominate contact areas. This seems like a coaching issue.

Where are the ball carriers in the forwards? Why does every other team have any number of forwards who are renowned for stealing ball at ruck time, we have Watson and occasionally whoever is at hooker and no one else. I’m stumped as to what our front five are doing outside of set pieces cos they never ever ever impact on a game, lead from the front, inspire those around them in the way that the front five from Ireland or Wales or England do.

Backs.

More than anything else STOP KICKING THE FUCKING BALL AWAY. TACTICAL KICKING IS BULLSHIT IF ITS JUST AIMLESSLY GIVING POSSESSION AWAY.

Laidlaw is our best scrum half. Yes at times he’s too slow but I think this is down to coaching/game plan. He’s capable of quick play, even does it sometimes. he’s also a leader and world class goal kicker.
Price is worse, I actually can’t watch him play.
GHorne should be getting developed more, I believe he’s our best bet for future, speed of thought and action.

Russell. I have a love/hate thing watching Russell play. He’s so skillful but wastes it time after time. We aren’t going to grow and develop as a team having a maverick in a key role, but then again he’s so far ahead of any other option that we can’t not play him.
Hastings is years away from being intl ready.
Horne is a 12, not a 10, and btw I think he’s our best 12.


Overall, Toonie needs to pick a style and go with it. He also needs time in the job, saying he’s already on a shoogly peg is a bit daft. The best coaches of recent years, Gatland, Hansen, Schmidt, all had years and years of development. As Cameo said, if we’re demanding instant success and immediate improvement, better get the CVs in for the next few candidates right now.

All seems reasonable to me.

Donny osmond wrote:
Overall, Toonie needs to pick a style and go with it. He also needs time in the job, saying he’s already on a shoogly peg is a bit daft. The best coaches of recent years, Gatland, Hansen, Schmidt, all had years and years of development. As Cameo said, if we’re demanding instant success and immediate improvement, better get the CVs in for the next few candidates right now.

I think only Java is calling for his head if there is no improvement (4wins in 6N).

He was brought in to improve on what Cotter did because he said he was leaving Glasgow, a 0/1 win 6N and failure to get out of the group would be complete failure. I can't agree with the part about instant success and immediate improvement. Cotter and his coaches had Scotland sitting 5th in the world with the prospect of a tour in the summer where all the games were winnable and coming off a very decent 6N where they very dominated a Welsh team in the second half and nearly won in Paris. There was of course a collective brain fart by the players and injury hell when they were pumped in England.

So considering we sacked a very good coaching team who were trending in a very positive direction 2 years away from a world cup because Toony wanted to quit Glasgow we absolutely should be demanding improvement through good performances and good coaching decisions. He has been owned by Gatland twice now and has still shown no signs that he can coach a side to beat a blitz defence at international level.

Big D wrote:

Donny osmond wrote:
Overall, Toonie needs to pick a style and go with it. He also needs time in the job, saying he’s already on a shoogly peg is a bit daft. The best coaches of recent years, Gatland, Hansen, Schmidt, all had years and years of development. As Cameo said, if we’re demanding instant success and immediate improvement, better get the CVs in for the next few candidates right now.

I think only Java is calling for his head if there is no improvement (4wins in 6N).

He was brought in to improve on what Cotter did because he said he was leaving Glasgow, a 0/1 win 6N and failure to get out of the group would be complete failure. I can't agree with the part about instant success and immediate improvement. Cotter and his coaches had Scotland sitting 5th in the world with the prospect of a tour in the summer where all the games were winnable and coming off a very decent 6N where they very dominated a Welsh team in the second half and nearly won in Paris. There was of course a collective brain fart by the players and injury hell when they were pumped in England.

So considering we sacked a very good coaching team who were trending in a very positive direction 2 years away from a world cup because Toony wanted to quit Glasgow we absolutely should be demanding improvement through good performances and good coaching decisions. He has been owned by Gatland twice now and has still shown no signs that he can coach a side to beat a blitz defence at international level.

That is exactly how I see the situation too.

Danny Wilson was talked up in the press and we bought him out of a contract to get him in, he's obviously highly rated. I know he didn't have much time with the team before the AI's but I'm looking for significant improvement in the forwards during the 6N. Someone must be able to bring out the "dog" in them.

I think some of the difference of opinion here is due to different opinions on how good are players are and therefore how good we are aiming to be.

I consider myself one of the positive people on this board and I think our potential at the moment is to be around 5-6 in the world but fairly confident against anyone at home with the game to beat the very best anywhere on a good day. Even under Cotter I dont think we were ever going to be in a position to reliably beat the best.

With that in mind, I think our progress under Townsend has been in line with what I hoped for. It's been an exciting year and a bit with a slightly underwhelming (but not bad) AI series. We have built our depth and discovered some new players but have still not sorted our away form or occassional nightmares. Of course losing almost every match next year would be a disaster but that applies to everyone.

I think this shapes my thinking on the way we play and Russell. If we had a flyhalf who takes less risks and therefore makes less mistakes (like Sexton or Farrell - although I think their error free reputation is vastly overstated) I think we would have less chance in the big games (unless its raining) than we do currently.

I share some of the concerns esp. about the forwards and think that might have even led to a more conservative gameplan this autumn but I dont know where all this hysteria is coming from. We are in a very good place considering

Cameo wrote: I share some of the concerns esp. about the forwards and think that might have even led to a more conservative gameplan this autumn but I dont know where all this hysteria is coming from. We are in a very good place considering

I think there are a few reasons people may be feeling discontented and those are probably due to one or a combination of:
1. An undercurrent of feeling that we shouldn't have sacked BVC and his staff.
2. Despite having limited forwards we appear to have stuck to a game plan that minimises any chance of them achieving gain line success.
3. No real answer to a blitz defence.
4. Showing no real answer to big physical teams and having 4 teams in the 6N who can play a physical brand of rugby and 3 physical teams in the RWC group and possibly SA this is a concern.
5. The promise last year that we would play fast rugby and the AIs saw none of that bar Fiji.
6. Constant rotation and not giving the team a chance to come together across 2 games in a row.

Although I will say I don't think there has been too much hysteria (bar Java's post). Many things change around the end world cup cycle, suggesting there are things to be concerned about and potential that GTs position could become untenable (under a very specific set of circumstances) isn't too hysterical IMO.

On the whole I think we've made progress under Toony but it's the been done with some absolutely bizarre inconsistency on a game-to-game or even half of rugby basis.

To illustrate my point, I think the best rugby we've played was against the ABs last autumn just over a year ago. If that's the bench mark we have regressed significantly.

Tell me you disagree... If that fire, that discipline was brought to every match we'd be third in the world IMO. To me that represents wasted potential - if you can step up your performance to that standard because the ABs are in town then you should damn well be able to do it every game.