Snap General Election called

[Mikey Brown]

She comes across like a conservative plant to make the rest of them look like less awful people. Really a truly disgusting person.

[Mikey Brown]

David Cameron really can do one as well. What a fucking snake.

[Stom]

David Cameron really can do one as well. What a fucking snake.

What did he do/say?

BTW, I'm using the politics live feed from the Granuaid as a "good news" source. That's inredible. They're just competent. If they keep up like this, wow.

[Mikey Brown]

Oh, mainly just reminded me he existed. Bloody Europeans coming over here and stealing our peerages.

[Sandydragon]

Yeah, I'd never heard of him before but someone who believes in rehabilitation is a welcome change.

Timpsons have always been incredible - they offer a free dry-cleaning service to anyone who's unemployed/homeless and needs a clean outfit for a job interview, as well as funding 48 hour suit hire in places, and they make a point to employ ex-offenders and hire from job fayres in prisons, as well as actually look after their staff's mental health, rather than just give lip service to it, they pay the National Living Wage and profit share with employees, they have a ridiculous list of benefits for employees - they've just brilliant. They will always have my business whenever I have something needs doing that they do.

I mean, look at this! https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/working ... /benefits/

Puja

Heroic!!

This is genuinely interesting and could be a great move. The bloke knows more about rehabilitation than the vast majority of other prison ministers. He will need a plan and he will have to sell it well to avoid the charge that he is being soft on criminals.

[Puja]

Timpsons have always been incredible - they offer a free dry-cleaning service to anyone who's unemployed/homeless and needs a clean outfit for a job interview, as well as funding 48 hour suit hire in places, and they make a point to employ ex-offenders and hire from job fayres in prisons, as well as actually look after their staff's mental health, rather than just give lip service to it, they pay the National Living Wage and profit share with employees, they have a ridiculous list of benefits for employees - they've just brilliant. They will always have my business whenever I have something needs doing that they do.

I mean, look at this! https://www.timpson-group.co.uk/working ... /benefits/

Puja

Heroic!!

This is genuinely interesting and could be a great move. The bloke knows more about rehabilitation than the vast majority of other prison ministers. He will need a plan and he will have to sell it well to avoid the charge that he is being soft on criminals.

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Heroic!!

This is genuinely interesting and could be a great move. The bloke knows more about rehabilitation than the vast majority of other prison ministers. He will need a plan and he will have to sell it well to avoid the charge that he is being soft on criminals.

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

[Sandydragon]

This is genuinely interesting and could be a great move. The bloke knows more about rehabilitation than the vast majority of other prison ministers. He will need a plan and he will have to sell it well to avoid the charge that he is being soft on criminals.

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Exactly.

[Stom]

This is genuinely interesting and could be a great move. The bloke knows more about rehabilitation than the vast majority of other prison ministers. He will need a plan and he will have to sell it well to avoid the charge that he is being soft on criminals.

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Easy to forget that traditional one nation tories exist, and the biggest reason I was blue leaning as a young man.

The politics of the last 20 years have kind of eroded that view, with a succession of worse and worse Tories setting the tone.

[Puja]

This is genuinely interesting and could be a great move. The bloke knows more about rehabilitation than the vast majority of other prison ministers. He will need a plan and he will have to sell it well to avoid the charge that he is being soft on criminals.

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

I didn’t say you called him a fascist, I was just using the lingo of our hyperbolic times. I get bored of the all Tories are evil/awful/whatever/how could you possible be a Tory and a nice person rubbish. It’s sooo fucking lazy.
People join political parties all the time without agreeing with every single policy. I’d hazard a guess that everyone who joins a party doesn’t agree with every single policy of that party. So why it’s so hard to wrap your head round the Timpson family’s political dynamics baffles me. Unless, of course, you agree with the trope that you can’t be a Conservative and be a compassionate person.

[Sandydragon]

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Easy to forget that traditional one nation tories exist, and the biggest reason I was blue leaning as a young man.

The politics of the last 20 years have kind of eroded that view, with a succession of worse and worse Tories setting the tone.

The party has been captured by the right wing. Hopefully it can recover as a centre right party would still represent a lot of people.

[Sandydragon]

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

Taking responsibility for your actions is usually the start to changing behaviour.

[Puja]

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

Taking responsibility for your actions is usually the start to changing behaviour.

True, but generally there's some background on why that behaviour happened in the first place, rather than just "poor moral fibre". Better crime preventing methods tend to start by addressing those.

Puja

[Stom]

The thing that baffles me is that his dad was also of a similar mindset and set up Timpsons as that kind of business... yet his brother was a Conservative MP. Sort out that family dynamic, if you can.

Puja

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

Back in the early 2000s I was part of a debate and took part in a summer school on law policy. There were multiple members of the Tory party involved, some of whom were very much for rehabilitation.

It was probably the largest part of the party until thatcher. And one reason why she was responsible for the awful political situation we find ourselves in. Pretty much every reprehensible policy can draw its lines back to her

[Puja]

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

Back in the early 2000s I was part of a debate and took part in a summer school on law policy. There were multiple members of the Tory party involved, some of whom were very much for rehabilitation.

It was probably the largest part of the party until thatcher. And one reason why she was responsible for the awful political situation we find ourselves in. Pretty much every reprehensible policy can draw its lines back to her

I think it's safe to say that Thatcher had such an outsize effect on the Conservative party (and British politics in general tbh), that anything before her can't really be considered canon to the modern concept of "the Conservatives".

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Realising that not all Conservatives are fascists might help you sort it. Google some of the arch fascist Michel Gove’s ideas and policies whilst he was prisons minister and you’ll get the idea. Even this fascist* was putting forward Timpson’s view to his local MP and local Conservative Party long before it suddenly became fashionable as of yesterday. I know we’re all awful but you can sometimes slip a cigarette paper between all the members on policy/decency/awfulness. Though, that might be because we’re all slimy or because we are soaked in the blood of the working class.

*am I still a facist if I’m no longer a member? What if I tell you I voted Lib Dem in my local Metro Mayor election? Complicated innit.

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

There were multiple members of the Tory party involved, some of whom were very much for rehabilitation.

There still was back when I was a member not too many years ago, at least in circles I mixed in. It just isn’t popular with the public at large - as a whole and obvs as a right of centre subsection - so if you want to win votes as the Conservative Party you tend to stay away from it. Albeit, as previously mentioned, Gove did some good work on it whilst Prisons Minister.

[Which Tyler]

Easy to forget that traditional one nation tories exist, and the biggest reason I was blue leaning as a young man.

They pretty much only exist as voters and members). The MPs were purged in 2019, when they had to sign a letter of loyalty to Johnson and Brexit, or be de-selected (Clarke, Soams, Stewart etc etc).
Some held on, either keeping their head down, and hoping to change things from the inside (Buckland, Mordaunt) or deciding that pragmatism for their political career was more important (Chalk). I'm sure there are plenty of other names as well, but currently, they don't look likely to "take back control".

The current tory party aren't fascist (and I don't think anyone here has said anything like that), but they are flirting hard with the pseudo-fascists and neo-fascists, and the hardest flirters have been being rewarded with important cabinet positions over the last 5 years.
There's a huge difference between "the tory party" and "the current tory party". The current tory party absolutely needed to be kicked out, and kicked out HARD. It's up for debate whether they learn the right lessons and move back to a small-c conservative party, or the wrong lessons and move further into the Reform space - in which case, I will start labelling "the current tory party" as pseudo-fascists - the party that is, not necessarily their voters, they'd merely be enablers (knowingly or otherwise).

[Stom]

Holy strawman, Batman. When did I call him (or you, or all Conservatives) fascists? I just found it odd that a family known for being very pro-rehabilitation of ex-convicts would join a party that is generally famous for a more "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" and "people should take responsibility for their own actions" attitude to law and order.

Puja

Back in the early 2000s I was part of a debate and took part in a summer school on law policy. There were multiple members of the Tory party involved, some of whom were very much for rehabilitation.

It was probably the largest part of the party until thatcher. And one reason why she was responsible for the awful political situation we find ourselves in. Pretty much every reprehensible policy can draw its lines back to her

I think it's safe to say that Thatcher had such an outsize effect on the Conservative party (and British politics in general tbh), that anything before her can't really be considered canon to the modern concept of "the Conservatives".

Puja

I agree. But I grew up on the likes of Clarke and Heseltine, and then later, God forbid, on the first incarnation of Boris as a populist one nation Tory standing against Blair’s profiteering.

It was only in my early 20s that I realized that the more appropriate home for my views was Labour, coincidentally when Blair was gone.

My point is that for years, there were more conservatives who I could associate with than Labour, who had many downright terrible ministers.

But it all goes back to the specter of Thatcher, and the damage her (and Reagan’s) policies had on the world.

[Stom]

Easy to forget that traditional one nation tories exist, and the biggest reason I was blue leaning as a young man.

They pretty much only exist as voters and members). The MPs were purged in 2019, when they had to sign a letter of loyalty to Johnson and Brexit, or be de-selected (Clarke, Soams, Stewart etc etc).
Some held on, either keeping their head down, and hoping to change things from the inside (Buckland, Mordaunt) or deciding that pragmatism for their political career was more important (Chalk). I'm sure there are plenty of other names as well, but currently, they don't look likely to "take back control".

The current tory party aren't fascist (and I don't think anyone here has said anything like that), but they are flirting hard with the pseudo-fascists and neo-fascists, and the hardest flirters have been being rewarded with important cabinet positions over the last 5 years.
There's a huge difference between "the tory party" and "the current tory party". The current tory party absolutely needed to be kicked out, and kicked out HARD. It's up for debate whether they learn the right lessons and move back to a small-c conservative party, or the wrong lessons and move further into the Reform space - in which case, I will start labelling "the current tory party" as pseudo-fascists - the party that is, not necessarily their voters, they'd merely be enablers (knowingly or otherwise).

Well yes. And I think that was mells point: just because the Tory party has lurched far to the right doesn’t mean there aren’t many conservatives who share many views with us more liberal, left leaning folks.

In fact, while I have radical views for today, they’re not radical for a conservative pre thatcher. The current form of neo-capitalism does not align with the idea that anyone can have a business idea and build it. There’s way too much power in the hands of major corporations and their shareholders.

And while I welcome the sensible changes Starmer is putting in place, there can’t be real change until we pretty much destroy the current system… and I only think that’ll happen when we’re the retirees.

[Which Tyler]

Well yes. And I think that was mells point: just because the Tory party has lurched far to the right doesn’t mean there aren’t many conservatives who share many views with us more liberal, left leaning folks.

Of course, but that doesn't make it any less of a straw man, fighting against a claim that wasn't being made.

[Mellsblue]

Well yes. And I think that was mells point: just because the Tory party has lurched far to the right doesn’t mean there aren’t many conservatives who share many views with us more liberal, left leaning folks.

Of course, but that doesn't make it any less of a straw man, fighting against a claim that wasn't being made.

Conservatives have been labelled fascists in numerous spaces, just by dint of being Conservatives. Puja just happened to be the straw that broke the camel’s back with his flippant and lazy final sentence. Helped by MikeyB’s utterances about Conservatives being awful earlier in the thread.
As always, given we’re a bunch of nobodies arguing anonymously on an internet backwater, my post was semi unserious in its tone and, as already mentioned, was full of hyperbole to sit with the current trend, eg #stopthecoup.

[Mikey Brown]

Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.

[Stom]

Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.

Doesn’t help that things like Ecco’s “how to spot a fascist” have come back in popularity, and now everyone is noticing that, well, a lot of hardline “conservatives” are espousing pretty fascist points of view…

As ever, if we want a discussion, we need to stop labeling the person and start labeling the actions/words. So, Braverman isn’t a fascist, but the words she speaks are fascist.

But we’re not going to change that, just like the labeling of socialist views as communist.

Btw, my phone censors fascist but not communist… make of that what you will

[Mellsblue]

Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.