Snap General Election called

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Stom
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Stom »

Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:11 pm Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.
Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.
I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.
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Puja
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Puja »

Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:11 pm Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.
Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.
Fair enough - it was a cheap joke from me at the expense of Timpson the Tory (and by extension, Conservatives in general), and I'll apologise for it.

Puja
Last edited by Puja on Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Mikey Brown »

Yeah I think that's the thing that's hard to parse for anyone remotely left of centre. I can easily imagine an evil Tory that wants to burn the poor to heat their mansion house, but a theoretical conservative who disagrees with much of what the current party are doing yet still sees the opposition as inherently worse is harder to wrap your head around.

There's something positive they're doing, or something negative the opposition are doing, that means all the bad stuff is worth ignoring. I'm not sure what those things were or why this recent election happened to be the breaking point for so many of those that continued supporting them since the Brexit shambles.

The easy answer is Jeremy Corbyn, I suppose.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Mellsblue »

Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm
Mikey Brown wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:11 pm Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.
Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.
I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.
I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
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Stom
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Stom »

Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.
I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.
I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
Sure, it's all understandable :)

Politics is often complex, and different in different areas/places. Like the Conservative choice in "my" local area for years being Zac Goldsmith, the definition of: yeah, I agree with half of what you say, and vehemently disagree with the other half...

Except here, over here there is no excuse to vote Fidesz. And there's no way to change my mind on that.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by morepork »

Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.
I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.
I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Puja »

morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.
I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Stom »

Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
And the polls have Braverman ahead🤦‍♂️
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by morepork »

I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Stom »

morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.
Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Mellsblue »

morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.
I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
Because I’m voting for someone who doesn’t agree with the most toxic platforms of the party. If I were in Suella Braverman’s seat I wouldn’t vote for her, as an example.
Last edited by Mellsblue on Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Mellsblue »

Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:18 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.
Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.
3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Mellsblue »

Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.
I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
There are more Sunak backers than Truss backers left in the cpp.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Stom »

Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm
Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm

I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
There are more Sunak backers than Truss backers left in the cpp.
Doesn't matter if it goes to a members' vote...and that seems to be stacked with the loonies these days. Might as well merge with Reform and get it done with.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Mellsblue »

Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:42 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm
Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
There are more Sunak backers than Truss backers left in the cpp.
Doesn't matter if it goes to a members' vote...and that seems to be stacked with the loonies these days. Might as well merge with Reform and get it done with.
Unless they can engineer two moderate candidates. Not sure they have sufficient numbers to do that, though.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by morepork »

Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:18 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.
Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.
3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.
Any port in a storm. And yes, FPTP acknowledged. Why the global buy in?
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Puja »

morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:56 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:18 pm

Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.
3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.
Any port in a storm. And yes, FPTP acknowledged. Why the global buy in?
Well, we'd need the USA, at least. Change our economic system from unregulated capitalism and it's just asking for a CIA-backed coup.
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm
Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?
The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
And the polls have Braverman ahead🤦‍♂️
Won't matter - she's unpopular enough with MPs that she'll lose out in the initial rounds. It'll be Badenoch who wins.

Puja
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Stom »

Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:03 pm
morepork wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:56 pm
Mellsblue wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm

3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.
Any port in a storm. And yes, FPTP acknowledged. Why the global buy in?
Well, we'd need the USA, at least. Change our economic system from unregulated capitalism and it's just asking for a CIA-backed coup.
Stom wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm
Puja wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja
And the polls have Braverman ahead🤦‍♂️
Won't matter - she's unpopular enough with MPs that she'll lose out in the initial rounds. It'll be Badenoch who wins.

Puja
I’m not sure they’d vote for her… They seem very against her…

Either way, neither are electable.
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/
The Mythic Past: The creation of a mythical, idealized past to look to as a moment of national glory to which the country should return. While often based on some easily exaggerated moment in history, it needn’t be based on much at all. Leaders in fascist Italy placed a higher value on the myth itself than its historical veracity, for example.

Propaganda: While many political philosophies use propaganda, fascists lean on it to establish a sense of “us and them,” and to frame “them” as an existential threat to the nation.

Anti-Intellectualism: The “them” typically include intellectuals or sources of expertise that might disagree with the leadership of the government or the fascist movement. Beyond intellectuals in the humanities, leading figures in the hard sciences can also be targeted if they go against what the leader needs to be true.

Unreality: Fascists tend to ignore details that might trouble them and define truth as whatever the leader declares it to be. This can make propaganda more effective because it allows for a leader to get their followers to ignore problems that might derail a more reality-based movement. It can also lead to things like the Nazis trying to find Atlantis.

Hierarchy: Pretty much any fascist movement will establish a hierarchy of humanity with a particular group — be it a race, religion, sex, gender, or nation — on top and everybody else below. Equality is denied and the value of the alleged dominant group will be parroted for all to hear.

Victimhood: Despite the claims of superiority, the fascist tends to also claim this group has been victimized by others — say, stabbed in the back while they were about to win World War I — and that bold action is needed to right this “wrong” and restore the hierarchy. This also tends to make equality look like discrimination against a group that isn’t being discriminated against.

Law and Order: Fascists often promise to bring law and order to a nation, though they often end up more corrupt than anybody else.

Sexual Anxiety: Like other right-wing movements, fascism tends to play on fears of and prejudices against homosexuality. Fascist politicians often frame themselves as protectors of women and children in the face of fanatic homosexuals out to harm them.

Sodom and Gomorrah: Many authoritarian, right-wing regimes gather support from the countryside by painting the urban parts of the country as the source of decadence, cosmopolitanism, sin, crime, and moral decay. Urban elites are contrasted with the “real” citizens living a wholesome, traditional life in the country.

Arbeit Macht Frei: “Work makes you free” was written above the gates at Auschwitz. Not only a dark warning, it expresses the fascist notion that only by working for the nation does a person have value or deserve to be treated as a person. Hard physical labor is often highly valued, while those working in academia or other less physical professions are often looked down on.
This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .
Donny osmond
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Donny osmond »

Which Tyler wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:58 pm Moving on, I see the racists are unhappy
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... government
People are weird aren't they? This group or that group can be celebrated but this group of that group can't?
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Donny osmond
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Donny osmond »

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:58 pm Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/
The Mythic Past: The creation of a mythical, idealized past to look to as a moment of national glory to which the country should return. While often based on some easily exaggerated moment in history, it needn’t be based on much at all. Leaders in fascist Italy placed a higher value on the myth itself than its historical veracity, for example.

Propaganda: While many political philosophies use propaganda, fascists lean on it to establish a sense of “us and them,” and to frame “them” as an existential threat to the nation.

Anti-Intellectualism: The “them” typically include intellectuals or sources of expertise that might disagree with the leadership of the government or the fascist movement. Beyond intellectuals in the humanities, leading figures in the hard sciences can also be targeted if they go against what the leader needs to be true.

Unreality: Fascists tend to ignore details that might trouble them and define truth as whatever the leader declares it to be. This can make propaganda more effective because it allows for a leader to get their followers to ignore problems that might derail a more reality-based movement. It can also lead to things like the Nazis trying to find Atlantis.

Hierarchy: Pretty much any fascist movement will establish a hierarchy of humanity with a particular group — be it a race, religion, sex, gender, or nation — on top and everybody else below. Equality is denied and the value of the alleged dominant group will be parroted for all to hear.

Victimhood: Despite the claims of superiority, the fascist tends to also claim this group has been victimized by others — say, stabbed in the back while they were about to win World War I — and that bold action is needed to right this “wrong” and restore the hierarchy. This also tends to make equality look like discrimination against a group that isn’t being discriminated against.

Law and Order: Fascists often promise to bring law and order to a nation, though they often end up more corrupt than anybody else.

Sexual Anxiety: Like other right-wing movements, fascism tends to play on fears of and prejudices against homosexuality. Fascist politicians often frame themselves as protectors of women and children in the face of fanatic homosexuals out to harm them.

Sodom and Gomorrah: Many authoritarian, right-wing regimes gather support from the countryside by painting the urban parts of the country as the source of decadence, cosmopolitanism, sin, crime, and moral decay. Urban elites are contrasted with the “real” citizens living a wholesome, traditional life in the country.

Arbeit Macht Frei: “Work makes you free” was written above the gates at Auschwitz. Not only a dark warning, it expresses the fascist notion that only by working for the nation does a person have value or deserve to be treated as a person. Hard physical labor is often highly valued, while those working in academia or other less physical professions are often looked down on.
This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .
It feels like a pretty subjective assessment for anyone to make as to whether the party they don't like features characteristics from that list.

For me, the SNP would show nearly all the features from that list, but a) that's no reason for me to call them actual fascist and b) given the depth of my contempt for them I wouldn't be best placed to do that analysis anyway. When Mhairi Black stood up in parliament and accused the Tory govt of creeping fascism, how many of us agreed with her (I didn't, I was outraged at the hypocrisy), I think I remember it being discussed on here? But that was someone with an obvious axe to grind making a subjective analysis that ended in a shallow, populist and slightly hysterical assessment (I'm talking about Black, not me!).

I guess my point is, actual fascism is a country mile away from anything we've seen domestically in the UK, and drawing these parallels isn't really useful. Unless it's about the SNP.
It was so much easier to blame Them. It was bleakly depressing to think They were Us. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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Son of Mathonwy
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Son of Mathonwy »

Donny osmond wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:46 am
Son of Mathonwy wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:58 pm Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/
The Mythic Past:
Propaganda:
Anti-Intellectualism:
Unreality:
Hierarchy:
Victimhood:
Law and Order:
Sexual Anxiety:
Sodom and Gomorrah:
Arbeit Macht Frei: “Work makes you free”
This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .
It feels like a pretty subjective assessment for anyone to make as to whether the party they don't like features characteristics from that list.

For me, the SNP would show nearly all the features from that list, but a) that's no reason for me to call them actual fascist and b) given the depth of my contempt for them I wouldn't be best placed to do that analysis anyway. When Mhairi Black stood up in parliament and accused the Tory govt of creeping fascism, how many of us agreed with her (I didn't, I was outraged at the hypocrisy), I think I remember it being discussed on here? But that was someone with an obvious axe to grind making a subjective analysis that ended in a shallow, populist and slightly hysterical assessment (I'm talking about Black, not me!).

I guess my point is, actual fascism is a country mile away from anything we've seen domestically in the UK, and drawing these parallels isn't really useful. Unless it's about the SNP.
I agree that the question of whether or how closely a person or party hits each of those points has some subjectivity. But as a whole it has some value IMO.

Although there will always be disagreement over using the term fascist is a particular case I'd say it's objectively true that Trump scores very highly on this list so is at least very close to being a fascist.

I'd also say that Reform UK and (to a lesser degree) the Tories are objectively closer to fascism than are the other parties (although I'm not familiar enough with the SNP to judge them). Brexit (and Johnson definitely moved the Tories closer with all the victimhood, the anti-intellectualism, the unreality and of course the purging of members who did not agree with such tactics. And Farage has always floated in those waters. Clearly individuals can be closer or further away eg Jeremy Hunt vs Suella Braverman.

It's useful to have some kind of measure because, for example even if the Tories never become fascists, their use of some of fascism's tactics and messages enables and normalises fascism. It's clear than they've empowered Farage and he's the closest we have to Trump.
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Puja
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Puja »

Donny osmond wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:32 am
Which Tyler wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:58 pm Moving on, I see the racists are unhappy
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... government
People are weird aren't they? This group or that group can be celebrated but this group of that group can't?
I feel like context, both historical and social, probably gives clues as to why.

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Sandydragon
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Re: Snap General Election called

Post by Sandydragon »

Son of Mathonwy wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:58 am
Donny osmond wrote: Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:46 am
Son of Mathonwy wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:58 pm Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/



This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .
It feels like a pretty subjective assessment for anyone to make as to whether the party they don't like features characteristics from that list.

For me, the SNP would show nearly all the features from that list, but a) that's no reason for me to call them actual fascist and b) given the depth of my contempt for them I wouldn't be best placed to do that analysis anyway. When Mhairi Black stood up in parliament and accused the Tory govt of creeping fascism, how many of us agreed with her (I didn't, I was outraged at the hypocrisy), I think I remember it being discussed on here? But that was someone with an obvious axe to grind making a subjective analysis that ended in a shallow, populist and slightly hysterical assessment (I'm talking about Black, not me!).

I guess my point is, actual fascism is a country mile away from anything we've seen domestically in the UK, and drawing these parallels isn't really useful. Unless it's about the SNP.
I agree that the question of whether or how closely a person or party hits each of those points has some subjectivity. But as a whole it has some value IMO.

Although there will always be disagreement over using the term fascist is a particular case I'd say it's objectively true that Trump scores very highly on this list so is at least very close to being a fascist.

I'd also say that Reform UK and (to a lesser degree) the Tories are objectively closer to fascism than are the other parties (although I'm not familiar enough with the SNP to judge them). Brexit (and Johnson definitely moved the Tories closer with all the victimhood, the anti-intellectualism, the unreality and of course the purging of members who did not agree with such tactics. And Farage has always floated in those waters. Clearly individuals can be closer or further away eg Jeremy Hunt vs Suella Braverman.

It's useful to have some kind of measure because, for example even if the Tories never become fascists, their use of some of fascism's tactics and messages enables and normalises fascism. It's clear than they've empowered Farage and he's the closest we have to Trump.
The Tories are closer to fascism than Labour because they are right of centre, the same way Labour is closer to communism.

There is nothing wrong with holding right of centre views. I don’t see that any of the mainstream centralist parties are systemically ‘evil’ to use that nonsense description. Labelling Conservative voters as fascists is pathetic and whilst no one on this thread is doing that it’s a cripples for any rational debate when one party decides to abuse anyone who doesn’t agree with them. We’ve seen too much of that from the right and the left. If we are going to reclaim politics then moving away from the hysterical crap is a start.

Fair play to Mells for calmly defending his voting choice, but he shouldn’t be obliged to do so. I voted Labour for the first time ever but it was close and my local MP is a conservative who is towards the liberal side of the party and (since she has been returned) I hope she will help influence the party towards the centre. But there is clear blue sea between Conservative MPs and fascism (in the vast majority of cases I do accept a vocal minority are damn close) and a vote for a moderate conservative should not be construed as a vote for fascism. Ever.
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