RugbyRebels

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:11 pm Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:11 pm Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 12:11 pm Pfft. It's all relative. I'm sort of unsure if my post implied all conservatives are awful, or just better than Braverman.

Everything and everyone being referred to as fascist (not that I think Puja did that?) does seem to be a particularly unhelpful trend in whiny internet politics chat though.

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:00 pm

Apols if I misinterpreted. It is a big annoyance to me. I’ve had numerous interactions with people who will calmly tell me that I can’t be a good person and be a Tory. My favourite was a priest/reverend (whichever is CofE) who told me this after a meeting called to discuss a public sector led social housing scheme I’d initiated in my own spare time. Go figure.
As for the social media induced hyperbole. Well, it can fark off and take social media with it.

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.

I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.

I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 2:10 pm

I’m afraid I don’t get how you can vote for this Conservative Party, and I do feel that if you were to have done so, you’re implicitly enabling all the pretty awful things they do, even if you disagree.

But I also think you can be a conservative and decide not to vote for this party in their current iteration.

And I also believe it’s no where near as bad as voting for Fidesz over here.

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.

I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:18 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.

Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 3:14 pm

I voted for this Conservative Party as I know the MP is a good bloke, a One Nation Conservative* and someone who enjoys and is a good constituency mp. He and Boris don’t get along if that helps people reconcile my decision. I also voted Con as I believe a strong official opposition is a necessity for good law making and if the Tories lost my seat then there most definitely would not be a strong official opposition - not that there is now, particularly. Having as many One Nation MPs as possible in the cpp is also important to me (and the country, imo) as I want the party to move back towards the centre over the next five years. As Starmer has done with Labour.

I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm

I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja

There are more Sunak backers than Truss backers left in the cpp.

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:42 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja

There are more Sunak backers than Truss backers left in the cpp.

Doesn't matter if it goes to a members' vote...and that seems to be stacked with the loonies these days. Might as well merge with Reform and get it done with.

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:18 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm I can see it too and am not trying to play the man over the ball. I mean the man not the ball. I just cannot get my head around assuming "moderates" will ride in on a white horse, on either side of the political spectrum, and that a push to the assumed centre is the way to go. There needs to be a sea change here, one that serves people and not corporate doublespeak. There has been 40 years of this supposed centre catering to Mammon. It hasn't worked. The data is in.

Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.

3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:56 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:18 pm

Two things here.

1) It's FPTP: Mells literally had a choice for an individual, and chose that individual based on his views.

2) Unfortunately, for us to have a complete sea change would need buy-in worldwide, and we're not likely to see that, especially from 'Murica. We cannot switch economic system today, so we need to simply make the best job of what we have available to us.

Starmer has come in and appeased centrists. I totally (naively) expect him to do some pretty left leaning things, but the total change in tack over shareholder profits is not going to come on the back of one country.

3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.

Any port in a storm. And yes, FPTP acknowledged. Why the global buy in?

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:47 pm I don't get in brother. In a FFP environment how could your vote not enable the most toxic platforms of that party?

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja

And the polls have Braverman ahead

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 10:03 pm

morepork wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 8:56 pm

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:23 pm

3) Even though it should carry that much weight, my vote won’t change any seas.

Any port in a storm. And yes, FPTP acknowledged. Why the global buy in?

Well, we'd need the USA, at least. Change our economic system from unregulated capitalism and it's just asking for a CIA-backed coup.

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:05 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 6:54 pm

The Conservatives are going to elect their new leader and the first rounds of that are going to be voted for by the Conservative MPs. If the only ones left after the July 4th mass-murder are toxic bigoted fuckers, then they will vote for a toxic bigoted fucker leader, especially if they can point to everyone who was sensible getting voted out as evidence that the "Will of the People" is that they need to go further right to win elections. So therefore keeping a sensible Tory MP in could be seen as a good plan.

I mean, I think they will select a toxic bigoted fucker anyway, simply because the majority of those who kept their seats are the rabid fringe cause they were in safe seats (and because the Party membership get the final call when it's narrowed down to two candidates, and last time they did that, they picked Truss), but I can see Mell's logic there, even if it's not a decision I would make.

Puja

And the polls have Braverman ahead

Won't matter - she's unpopular enough with MPs that she'll lose out in the initial rounds. It'll be Badenoch who wins.

Puja

The Mythic Past: The creation of a mythical, idealized past to look to as a moment of national glory to which the country should return. While often based on some easily exaggerated moment in history, it needn’t be based on much at all. Leaders in fascist Italy placed a higher value on the myth itself than its historical veracity, for example.

Propaganda: While many political philosophies use propaganda, fascists lean on it to establish a sense of “us and them,” and to frame “them” as an existential threat to the nation.

Anti-Intellectualism: The “them” typically include intellectuals or sources of expertise that might disagree with the leadership of the government or the fascist movement. Beyond intellectuals in the humanities, leading figures in the hard sciences can also be targeted if they go against what the leader needs to be true.

Unreality: Fascists tend to ignore details that might trouble them and define truth as whatever the leader declares it to be. This can make propaganda more effective because it allows for a leader to get their followers to ignore problems that might derail a more reality-based movement. It can also lead to things like the Nazis trying to find Atlantis.

Hierarchy: Pretty much any fascist movement will establish a hierarchy of humanity with a particular group — be it a race, religion, sex, gender, or nation — on top and everybody else below. Equality is denied and the value of the alleged dominant group will be parroted for all to hear.

Victimhood: Despite the claims of superiority, the fascist tends to also claim this group has been victimized by others — say, stabbed in the back while they were about to win World War I — and that bold action is needed to right this “wrong” and restore the hierarchy. This also tends to make equality look like discrimination against a group that isn’t being discriminated against.

Law and Order: Fascists often promise to bring law and order to a nation, though they often end up more corrupt than anybody else.

Sexual Anxiety: Like other right-wing movements, fascism tends to play on fears of and prejudices against homosexuality. Fascist politicians often frame themselves as protectors of women and children in the face of fanatic homosexuals out to harm them.

Sodom and Gomorrah: Many authoritarian, right-wing regimes gather support from the countryside by painting the urban parts of the country as the source of decadence, cosmopolitanism, sin, crime, and moral decay. Urban elites are contrasted with the “real” citizens living a wholesome, traditional life in the country.

Arbeit Macht Frei: “Work makes you free” was written above the gates at Auschwitz. Not only a dark warning, it expresses the fascist notion that only by working for the nation does a person have value or deserve to be treated as a person. Hard physical labor is often highly valued, while those working in academia or other less physical professions are often looked down on.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:58 pm Moving on, I see the racists are unhappy
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... government

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:58 pm Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/

The Mythic Past: The creation of a mythical, idealized past to look to as a moment of national glory to which the country should return. While often based on some easily exaggerated moment in history, it needn’t be based on much at all. Leaders in fascist Italy placed a higher value on the myth itself than its historical veracity, for example.

Propaganda: While many political philosophies use propaganda, fascists lean on it to establish a sense of “us and them,” and to frame “them” as an existential threat to the nation.

Anti-Intellectualism: The “them” typically include intellectuals or sources of expertise that might disagree with the leadership of the government or the fascist movement. Beyond intellectuals in the humanities, leading figures in the hard sciences can also be targeted if they go against what the leader needs to be true.

Unreality: Fascists tend to ignore details that might trouble them and define truth as whatever the leader declares it to be. This can make propaganda more effective because it allows for a leader to get their followers to ignore problems that might derail a more reality-based movement. It can also lead to things like the Nazis trying to find Atlantis.

Hierarchy: Pretty much any fascist movement will establish a hierarchy of humanity with a particular group — be it a race, religion, sex, gender, or nation — on top and everybody else below. Equality is denied and the value of the alleged dominant group will be parroted for all to hear.

Victimhood: Despite the claims of superiority, the fascist tends to also claim this group has been victimized by others — say, stabbed in the back while they were about to win World War I — and that bold action is needed to right this “wrong” and restore the hierarchy. This also tends to make equality look like discrimination against a group that isn’t being discriminated against.

Law and Order: Fascists often promise to bring law and order to a nation, though they often end up more corrupt than anybody else.

Sexual Anxiety: Like other right-wing movements, fascism tends to play on fears of and prejudices against homosexuality. Fascist politicians often frame themselves as protectors of women and children in the face of fanatic homosexuals out to harm them.

Sodom and Gomorrah: Many authoritarian, right-wing regimes gather support from the countryside by painting the urban parts of the country as the source of decadence, cosmopolitanism, sin, crime, and moral decay. Urban elites are contrasted with the “real” citizens living a wholesome, traditional life in the country.

Arbeit Macht Frei: “Work makes you free” was written above the gates at Auschwitz. Not only a dark warning, it expresses the fascist notion that only by working for the nation does a person have value or deserve to be treated as a person. Hard physical labor is often highly valued, while those working in academia or other less physical professions are often looked down on.

This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:46 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:58 pm Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/

The Mythic Past:
Propaganda:
Anti-Intellectualism:
Unreality:
Hierarchy:
Victimhood:
Law and Order:
Sexual Anxiety:
Sodom and Gomorrah:
Arbeit Macht Frei: “Work makes you free”

This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .

It feels like a pretty subjective assessment for anyone to make as to whether the party they don't like features characteristics from that list.

For me, the SNP would show nearly all the features from that list, but a) that's no reason for me to call them actual fascist and b) given the depth of my contempt for them I wouldn't be best placed to do that analysis anyway. When Mhairi Black stood up in parliament and accused the Tory govt of creeping fascism, how many of us agreed with her (I didn't, I was outraged at the hypocrisy), I think I remember it being discussed on here? But that was someone with an obvious axe to grind making a subjective analysis that ended in a shallow, populist and slightly hysterical assessment (I'm talking about Black, not me!).

I guess my point is, actual fascism is a country mile away from anything we've seen domestically in the UK, and drawing these parallels isn't really useful. Unless it's about the SNP.

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:32 am

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 7:58 pm Moving on, I see the racists are unhappy
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ar ... government

People are weird aren't they? This group or that group can be celebrated but this group of that group can't?

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:58 am

Donny osmond wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:46 am

Son of Mathonwy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2024 11:58 pm Re fascism, this article and video gives a helpful list of 10 traits or tactics of fascism:

https://bigthink.com/thinking/fascism-d ... n-stanley/



This is quite helpful in recognising fascism and movements which are developing in that direction.
eg Trump hits pretty much all of them (it's actually pretty scary to watch the video and think about Trump and presidential immunity), but there are a few hits with the Tories and Reform - the Mythic Past (British Empire, the World Wars), propaganda about immigrants, anti intellectualism, unreality and victimhood re Brexit, Law and Order, Sexual Anxiety, Work Makes You Free, Hierarchy. The Tories lack the 'Strong Man'. Even Boris, the closest they had, was far too much of a joker. Farage is a bit of a joker too but given him time . . .

It feels like a pretty subjective assessment for anyone to make as to whether the party they don't like features characteristics from that list.

For me, the SNP would show nearly all the features from that list, but a) that's no reason for me to call them actual fascist and b) given the depth of my contempt for them I wouldn't be best placed to do that analysis anyway. When Mhairi Black stood up in parliament and accused the Tory govt of creeping fascism, how many of us agreed with her (I didn't, I was outraged at the hypocrisy), I think I remember it being discussed on here? But that was someone with an obvious axe to grind making a subjective analysis that ended in a shallow, populist and slightly hysterical assessment (I'm talking about Black, not me!).

I guess my point is, actual fascism is a country mile away from anything we've seen domestically in the UK, and drawing these parallels isn't really useful. Unless it's about the SNP.

I agree that the question of whether or how closely a person or party hits each of those points has some subjectivity. But as a whole it has some value IMO.

Although there will always be disagreement over using the term fascist is a particular case I'd say it's objectively true that Trump scores very highly on this list so is at least very close to being a fascist.

I'd also say that Reform UK and (to a lesser degree) the Tories are objectively closer to fascism than are the other parties (although I'm not familiar enough with the SNP to judge them). Brexit (and Johnson definitely moved the Tories closer with all the victimhood, the anti-intellectualism, the unreality and of course the purging of members who did not agree with such tactics. And Farage has always floated in those waters. Clearly individuals can be closer or further away eg Jeremy Hunt vs Suella Braverman.

It's useful to have some kind of measure because, for example even if the Tories never become fascists, their use of some of fascism's tactics and messages enables and normalises fascism. It's clear than they've empowered Farage and he's the closest we have to Trump.