RugbyRebels

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:11 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:28 pm

Jesus. I had not read that report before. Hartley's comments are allegedly supposed to be complimentary, but it sounds like abuse. "I just wanted to get through the game and win so I could have a nice week, an easier week with Eddie," especially sounds like the language of someone who's been abused.

If there's any truth to it, then I'm thrilled Eddie's gone. That is fucking awful.

Puja

....whilst saying he's the best he has worked with?? Its his book isnt it. As above, all a bit contradictory.

Banquo, in any other environment it would be simple bullying. Argue any way you like about that interpretation but the crunch for me is answering the question, "Did it work?"

Without being there its hard to ascribe terms like bullying and abuse to what is a high performance environment, where criticism is part and parcel. And the answer to your question is yes, for the period Hartley is talking about, certainly in relation to what was happening before Jones, as articulated by Hartley himself.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:25 pm Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

His first point was good, then he pretty much restated it. I'd stopped reading by the start of point 3.

Set piece, discipline and midfield are the three areas he needs to start with. Maybe throw in the kick chase. Provide the foundation to move on to the fun stuff.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:11 pm

Puja wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 6:28 pm

Jesus. I had not read that report before. Hartley's comments are allegedly supposed to be complimentary, but it sounds like abuse. "I just wanted to get through the game and win so I could have a nice week, an easier week with Eddie," especially sounds like the language of someone who's been abused.

If there's any truth to it, then I'm thrilled Eddie's gone. That is fucking awful.

Puja

....whilst saying he's the best he has worked with?? Its his book isnt it. As above, all a bit contradictory.

Banquo, in any other environment it would be simple bullying. Argue any way you like about that interpretation but the crunch for me is answering the question, "Did it work?"

Well, it isn't, though, is it. It shouldn't matter if it's working or not: abuse is abuse. Now I know there's a huge generation divide on this, but I think the performances of high-performing sports people in today's climate go to show just how important it is NOT to abuse people in the name of marginal gains.

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:48 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:57 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 7:11 pm

....whilst saying he's the best he has worked with?? Its his book isnt it. As above, all a bit contradictory.

Banquo, in any other environment it would be simple bullying. Argue any way you like about that interpretation but the crunch for me is answering the question, "Did it work?"

Well, it isn't, though, is it. It shouldn't matter if it's working or not: abuse is abuse. Now I know there's a huge generation divide on this, but I think the performances of high-performing sports people in today's climate go to show just how important it is NOT to abuse people in the name of marginal gains.

We've jumped straight from a quote to bullying/abuse. Have no idea personally but would condemn if that line has been crossed.

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:44 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:25 pm Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

His first point was good, then he pretty much restated it. I'd stopped reading by the start of point 3.

Set piece, discipline and midfield are the three areas he needs to start with. Maybe throw in the kick chase. Provide the foundation to move on to the fun stuff.

Defence too. Breakdown. Decision making. Decent list. In fairness, if you have to prioritise, then you may as well start with yours

Wtf is happening!!! I’m made up Jones has gone but to throw abuse/bullying into the mix is a bit of a step. It’s like suggesting Derek Mathewson mentally tortures men who drink real ale out of tankards

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:58 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:44 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 5:25 pm Matt Dawson surprisingly (perhaps)has some useful things to say
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63985770

His first point was good, then he pretty much restated it. I'd stopped reading by the start of point 3.

Set piece, discipline and midfield are the three areas he needs to start with. Maybe throw in the kick chase. Provide the foundation to move on to the fun stuff.

Defence too. Breakdown. Decision making. Decent list.

So England just need a bit of work on set piece, discipline, midfield, kick chase, defence, breakdown and decision making.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:17 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:58 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:44 pm

His first point was good, then he pretty much restated it. I'd stopped reading by the start of point 3.

Set piece, discipline and midfield are the three areas he needs to start with. Maybe throw in the kick chase. Provide the foundation to move on to the fun stuff.

Defence too. Breakdown. Decision making. Decent list.

So England just need a bit of work on set piece, discipline, midfield, kick chase, defence, breakdown and decision making.

yup, if they want to eat at the top table. Same list as everybody, obvs, but none of those areas are good enough.

p/d wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:08 pm Wtf is happening!!! I’m made up Jones has gone but to throw abuse/bullying into the mix is a bit of a step. It’s like suggesting Derek Mathewson mentally tortures men who drink real ale out of tankards

This was the article that sparked the discussions of abuse/bullying: https://12ft.io/www.telegraph.co.uk/rug ... ugby-team/

Puja

Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has Proudfoot and Hodgson going. Cockers staying on

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ve-latest/

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:37 pm Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has Proudfoot and Hodgson going. Cockers staying on

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ve-latest/

I mean, I can see a logic to keeping Cockerill. He has built some nasty packs in his time and he is an experienced coach. Not sure I'd want him hovering behind me when new and insecure in the job, but he could be a success under the right circumstances.

Puja

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:31 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:17 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:58 pm

Defence too. Breakdown. Decision making. Decent list.

So England just need a bit of work on set piece, discipline, midfield, kick chase, defence, breakdown and decision making.

yup, if they want to eat at the top table. Same list as everybody, obvs, but none of those areas are good enough.

How about basic skills, selection, leadership, tactics ?

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:14 am

Margin_Walker wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:37 pm Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has Proudfoot and Hodgson going. Cockers staying on

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ve-latest/

I mean, I can see a logic to keeping Cockerill. He has built some nasty packs in his time and he is an experienced coach. Not sure I'd want him hovering behind me when new and insecure in the job, but he could be a success under the right circumstances.

Puja

Think it has its risks tbh but we shall see; not sure what he brings to the party. Genuinely don’t know.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:55 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:31 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:17 pm

So England just need a bit of work on set piece, discipline, midfield, kick chase, defence, breakdown and decision making.

yup, if they want to eat at the top table. Same list as everybody, obvs, but none of those areas are good enough.

How about basic skills, selection, leadership, tactics ?

Good / those as well.

cashead wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 12:40 am How would the appointment process work? Would Borthwick get any say in whom his assistants are?

As regards coaches, Sweeney is quoted as saying that Borthwick 'will be given the freedom to appoint his team'.

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:21 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:55 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:31 pm

yup, if they want to eat at the top table. Same list as everybody, obvs, but none of those areas are good enough.

How about basic skills, selection, leadership, tactics ?

Good / those as well.

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 amBorthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management.

Or that they lost a lot of games.
Elite sportsmen tend not to like losing very much.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:47 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 amBorthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management.

Or that they lost a lot of games.
Elite sportsmen tend not to like losing very much.

well exactly, nor being dropped.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:21 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:55 am

How about basic skills, selection, leadership, tactics ?

Good / those as well.

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

what Which said; they are probably hurting with embarassment as much as anything else.

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:55 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:31 pm

Spiffy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 10:17 pm

So England just need a bit of work on set piece, discipline, midfield, kick chase, defence, breakdown and decision making.

yup, if they want to eat at the top table. Same list as everybody, obvs, but none of those areas are good enough.

How about basic skills, selection, leadership, tactics ?

Btw, threee of those were on Dawson's list. The basics is where I'd be starting tbh- as I'd said ages ago, Jones had been so focused on outsmarting the big teams, that he'd missed the 'basics' (skills, discipline and defence (IMO)).

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:21 am

Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:55 am

How about basic skills, selection, leadership, tactics ?

Good / those as well.

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

Not really sure what else Big Stevie could say. Not convinced’The players I have spoken to are over the moon with the way it went’ would wash.

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:56 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:48 pm

Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 8:57 pm

Banquo, in any other environment it would be simple bullying. Argue any way you like about that interpretation but the crunch for me is answering the question, "Did it work?"

Well, it isn't, though, is it. It shouldn't matter if it's working or not: abuse is abuse. Now I know there's a huge generation divide on this, but I think the performances of high-performing sports people in today's climate go to show just how important it is NOT to abuse people in the name of marginal gains.

We've jumped straight from a quote to bullying/abuse. Have no idea personally but would condemn if that line has been crossed.

When you read what Hartley has written, it definitely sounds like a very, very problematic culture. Now, I understand he's probably exaggerating, but even so, it's not what I would consider an environment conducive to high performance.

p/d wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:34 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:28 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 8:21 am

Good / those as well.

Borthwick is quoted as referring to 'how much the players are hurting'. That sounds to me like an open declaration that hell of a lot was wrong in approach to all the categories of management. I find that very encouraging because straightforward 'good management' could/should improve performance very quickly.

Not really sure what else Big Stevie could say. Not convinced’The players I have spoken to are over the moon with the way it went’ would wash.

"The players were pleased to lose a couple of games at home and be booed off the pitch in 3 of 4 games this Autumn."

Borthwick hates the media games so I wouldn't expect much of interest on the record.

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:56 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:48 pm

Well, it isn't, though, is it. It shouldn't matter if it's working or not: abuse is abuse. Now I know there's a huge generation divide on this, but I think the performances of high-performing sports people in today's climate go to show just how important it is NOT to abuse people in the name of marginal gains.

We've jumped straight from a quote to bullying/abuse. Have no idea personally but would condemn if that line has been crossed.

When you read what Hartley has written, it definitely sounds like a very, very problematic culture. Now, I understand he's probably exaggerating, but even so, it's not what I would consider an environment conducive to high performance.

If it was one account, then I might consider it hyperbole to sell a book, but combined with the "amusing" anecdotes about insults and mind games, the massive turnover of staff, the reports of how he treated Yarde responding honestly to "How are you feeling?", the reports about Malins - I'm willing to give reports of an abusive culture a lot of credence when there's a lot of independent ones.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 10:28 am

Stom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:39 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 9:56 pm
We've jumped straight from a quote to bullying/abuse. Have no idea personally but would condemn if that line has been crossed.

When you read what Hartley has written, it definitely sounds like a very, very problematic culture. Now, I understand he's probably exaggerating, but even so, it's not what I would consider an environment conducive to high performance.

If it was one account, then I might consider it hyperbole to sell a book, but combined with the "amusing" anecdotes about insults and mind games, the massive turnover of staff, the reports of how he treated Yarde responding honestly to "How are you feeling?", the reports about Malins - I'm willing to give reports of an abusive culture a lot of credence when there's a lot of independent ones.

Puja

As I reported on here a year or so back, I only know of one direct quote from the professional game. A racketball club colleague, Steve, is a relative by marriage of David Flatman. At a family gathering when rugby was discussed, Flatman said, "All the players hate Jones." I trust Steve's account to be honest and accurate. Beyond that, I could not say, but I don't know why Flatman would say it if it was not reportedly so.

I'd just say that Borthwick has a huge scope for improvement in all areas.