Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Puja]

Saints are hard hit too. Interesting to see just who fills positions 9-15 at the weekend. Possibly good news for Newcastle.

Steve Diamond does have a bit of luck to him - come in and potential of an immediate first win, against the league leaders no less.

Absolute comedy to have the Prem back for one week, where some are missing half the squad and others none at all, then off again for 2 months. No wonder the clubs can't raise money and get sponsors and investors - we don't treat our own product seriously, so why should anyone else?

Puja

[Oakboy]

Saints are hard hit too. Interesting to see just who fills positions 9-15 at the weekend. Possibly good news for Newcastle.

Steve Diamond does have a bit of luck to him - come in and potential of an immediate first win, against the league leaders no less.

Absolute comedy to have the Prem back for one week, where some are missing half the squad and others none at all, then off again for 2 months. No wonder the clubs can't raise money and get sponsors and investors - we don't treat our own product seriously, so why should anyone else?

Puja

It's also an insult to the paying public.

[Puja]

Saints are hard hit too. Interesting to see just who fills positions 9-15 at the weekend. Possibly good news for Newcastle.

Steve Diamond does have a bit of luck to him - come in and potential of an immediate first win, against the league leaders no less.

Absolute comedy to have the Prem back for one week, where some are missing half the squad and others none at all, then off again for 2 months. No wonder the clubs can't raise money and get sponsors and investors - we don't treat our own product seriously, so why should anyone else?

Puja

It's also an insult to the paying public.

[Puja]

So, what do we reckon minimum standards are for Sloppy Ballpresentation in the 6N. Personally, I'd say this should be a three win 6N - I'd hope we won't lose to Italy, Wales are there for the taking right now, and, if we're at all ambitious of being a top team, we should be looking at a 50% success rate from two games against Scotland away and Ireland home. Going forward, three wins should be what a well-coached and well-developed England team is expecting as a minimum.

That being said, it's more important to me that we actually play some rugby. I don't need Barbarians style, nor a complete divestment from box-kicking, but I do want to see us playing the game. I want it to be that us having the ball more than 30m from the opposition line is not just an automated one forward carry->caterpillar ruck->box-kick. I would rather have 2 wins and look to build a team that might grow into something, than I would a Grand Slam achieved by refusing to play, and developing and learning nothing.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

We’re told winning at all costs is the only thing that matters, and I think that’s largely the kind of attitude we’ll see. I’d just like to see some hints that this will be a side with more freedom to think for themselves, rather than going out there and flogging the pre-determined gameplan to death, regardless of where it gets us.

I do wonder if there’s a point where being so dull that viewers switch off is deemed worse than not getting the results. I feel like I care less and less about results, and more about not having wasted my time watching two sides practice caterpillar rucks and box kicks.

[Mellsblue]

If we’re going to win at all costs then we’ll have to move away from Borthball 1.0. Which means it’s a good job we’ve such an experienced and high quality attack coa… oh.

[fivepointer]

Our schedule is Italy A, Wales H, Scotland A, Ireland H and France A

Difficult to know just what we will look like or play like.

This was the last England team selected -
Marcus Smith; Freddie Steward, Joe Marchant, Manu Tuilagi, Henry Arundell; Owen Farrell (captain), Ben Youngs; Ellis Genge, Theo Dan, Will Stuart; Maro Itoje, Ollie Chessum; Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Ben Earl
Replacements: Jamie George, Bevan Rodd, Dan Cole, David Ribbans, Lewis Ludlam, Danny Care, George Ford, Ollie Lawrence

Only 12 of that 23 are currently available for Italy.

I hope we'll play a bit. We'll have a new 10 and 12 and we have to trust in them to show a bit of enterprise. Would be nice to see some real intent. We do have a squad with a fair bit of skill and creativity. Be a huge shame not to properly use it.

Its either 2 or 3 wins I feel. Scotland away is going to be a tough one but if we win our first 2, then some momentum going into that game will stand us in good stead. Ireland and France are bound to be our hardest games.

[ad_tigger]

To be honest, above all us I just want to bloody beat Scotland. In the last 6 years we've lost 4, drawn 1, won 1.Before that since 1987 we'd won 27, lost 4, drawn 2. To me that is the natural order of things and we need to get back to it. Our inability to reliably put away generally decent but unexceptional Scotland sides in the last 6 years is a clear symptom of how far we have sunk.

[FKAS]

Three wins has got to be the minimum target really. Italy and Wales are not close to being top tier teams, Scotland are a decent international team but have their weaknesses we should be looking to exploit.

I agree with Puja we do need to play a bit more, particularly in the opposition half. Some of the pressure plus stuff was fine given Shiny Bunting had only what, 9 days with the squad before the start of the last 6N. This time out we need to be doing more. I'm not expecting us to be playing out from our half or such like but Borthwick has spoken highly over how Saints have been playing and Vesty being involved with the A team reinforces that. I'd hope we'd then see some clever first phase moves and some more innovative multi phase attacks.

[Scrumhead]

So, what do we reckon minimum standards are for Sloppy Ballpresentation in the 6N. Personally, I'd say this should be a three win 6N - I'd hope we won't lose to Italy, Wales are there for the taking right now, and, if we're at all ambitious of being a top team, we should be looking at a 50% success rate from two games against Scotland away and Ireland home. Going forward, three wins should be what a well-coached and well-developed England team is expecting as a minimum.

That being said, it's more important to me that we actually play some rugby. I don't need Barbarians style, nor a complete divestment from box-kicking, but I do want to see us playing the game. I want it to be that us having the ball more than 30m from the opposition line is not just an automated one forward carry->caterpillar ruck->box-kick. I would rather have 2 wins and look to build a team that might grow into something, than I would a Grand Slam achieved by refusing to play, and developing and learning nothing.

Puja

100% agree.

TBH, I have 0 expectation of beating France. However, I’m curious to see how Ireland do without Sexton and Hansen. I think the amount of familiarity they’re able to draw upon will definitely mitigate those losses, but they’re probably more vulnerable right now than they have been in some time. I don’t expect us to beat them, but in the (probably unlikely) scenario where we have three wins and three decent performances under our belt, I wouldn’t totally rule it out.

[Spiffy]

So, what do we reckon minimum standards are for Sloppy Ballpresentation in the 6N. Personally, I'd say this should be a three win 6N - I'd hope we won't lose to Italy, Wales are there for the taking right now, and, if we're at all ambitious of being a top team, we should be looking at a 50% success rate from two games against Scotland away and Ireland home. Going forward, three wins should be what a well-coached and well-developed England team is expecting as a minimum.

That being said, it's more important to me that we actually play some rugby. I don't need Barbarians style, nor a complete divestment from box-kicking, but I do want to see us playing the game. I want it to be that us having the ball more than 30m from the opposition line is not just an automated one forward carry->caterpillar ruck->box-kick. I would rather have 2 wins and look to build a team that might grow into something, than I would a Grand Slam achieved by refusing to play, and developing and learning nothing.

Puja

100% agree.

TBH, I have 0 expectation of beating France. However, I’m curious to see how Ireland do without Sexton and Hansen. I think the amount of familiarity they’re able to draw upon will definitely mitigate those losses, but they’re probably more vulnerable right now than they have been in some time. I don’t expect us to beat them, but in the (probably unlikely) scenario where we have three wins and three decent performances under our belt, I wouldn’t totally rule it out.

I suspect Ireland may have peaked last year. They have the same old squad,not an uncapped player in it, scrum and line out issues and lack a bit of real spark and pace out wide. They also have a serious problem with FB cover if Keenan gets croaked - nobody comes close. If Squashed Beak picks the right team, and allows them to run the ball a bit, they could well get a result here.

[morepork]

I hope the French playmakers just blow the kok off England with basic well-executed ball skills done at pace and compel Switch Blade to confront his coaching philosophy.

[Scrumhead]

Well they already did that last year …

[Oakboy]

Starting from the low point of winning 2, could SB survive it? Yes, IF, there are clear signs of improvement in style of play with some try-scoring creativity and if the three defeats are by a score or two.

That could be better than 3 wins with too much 'kick and hope', no sprigs of change for the better and two dispiriting defeats.

My worst scenario involves one single match where, right from the kick-off, we don't look fully up for it - we had that frequently under Jones. I have never cared about defeat by a side better than us. What is unforgiveable is not giving of our best in all aspects, individually and collectively.

We should be confident of winning the first match and, regardless of venue, we would choose this year's order of matches for maximum incremental improvement. I'd fancy us against Ireland if win the first three and show progress, game on game.

So, 2 wins could be enough but I dare to hope for four.

[16th man]

Starting from the low point of winning 2, could SB survive it?

You can't believe there's any chance he gets fired, unless he completely loses it and starts picking props at 12 / punches a ref / interviewer / member of the crowd complaining about box kicks.

[FKAS]

I can't see the RFU wanting to fire another head coach just over a year on from the last time. It would be another cost they don't want and they'd get mullered by the press. There's no obvious candidate waiting to step in either, the Dowson/Vesty combination could emerge as one but it's a little bit early for them and Vesty getting A team experience might well help that in the mid to longer term.

[p/d]

I think we will go unbeaten.


Then sack the fecker

[Timbo]

The mighty Charlie Ewels called up to replace a sickly Nick Isiekwe. Ewels in fairness has been playing very well this season. Doubt he’ll be in the 23 anyway though.

[p/d]

The mighty Charlie Ewels called up to replace a sickly Nick Isiekwe. Ewels in fairness has been playing very well this season. Doubt he’ll be in the 23 anyway though.

Never thought I would be pleased about a Ewels call up, but on this occasion..

[Puja]

Everything coming up Bristol this weekend.

I'm quite pleased with that as a call. It's not as though he's likely to get onto the pitch, but he's experienced, knows the international environment already, and will be a net benefit to the training environment, rather than calling up someone like Tuima who'd need coaching and management and could be forgiven for being a bit wide-eyed and overwhelmed by the new experience.

News websites categorising this as "another blow for England's injury-stricken squad", but the only one of the missing who was likely to trouble a XXIII is Lawrence, and even his loss isn't insuperable if it makes us play an actual 12. I do feel for Isiekwe, who's worked hard to come back, but I am happy that the chances of us playing a lock at 6 are reducing by the second.

Puja

[Oakboy]

I'd have thought that Launchbury would have been a better call if it was just as a training ground presence.

[p/d]

I'd have thought that Launchbury would have been a better call if it was just as a training ground presence.

SB didn’t play or coach Quins/Wasps, so not sure why you would think that

[fivepointer]

Ewels should have been in ahead of Isiekwe from the outset. A far better player and one who is in form.

[Timbo]

Ewels should have been in ahead of Isiekwe from the outset. A far better player and one who is in form.

Respect your opinion, but personally I think Isiekwe is massively under rated. Post heart op he’s really started to develop into the player he looked like becoming at age grade. Currently the best lineout lock in the country for me.

[Mikey Brown]

Ewels should have been in ahead of Isiekwe from the outset. A far better player and one who is in form.

Respect your opinion, but personally I think Isiekwe is massively under rated. Post heart op he’s really started to develop into the player he looked like becoming at age grade. Currently the best lineout lock in the country for me.

I haven't followed him closely enough to know, but it's difficult to judge with his appearances under Eddie, switching back and forth from lock/flanker and never being the kind of tight-head presence England/Sarries need alongside Itoje. Fair to say he's quite similar to Lawes in that respect?