RugbyRebels

I can't believe this tedious shit is dragging on still.

It'll drag on until the UK is either the largest economy in the world or is receiving foreign aid. Anything in between and the rabid-Brexiteers and the rabid-Europhiles will claim we are/would be worse/better off were we still in the EU.

Mellsblue wrote:It'll drag on until the UK is either the largest economy in the world or is receiving foreign aid. Anything in between and the rabid-Brexiteers and the rabid-Europhiles will claim we are/would be worse/better off were we still in the EU.

I don't think it's up for debate we'll be economically worse off, maybe in the dim and distant future it'll prove the right decision even on an economic basis, but I suspect that judgement will come after I'm dead so I'm sticking with worse off on that basis. I know we hear we'll be able to fashion these wonderful new deals, but tbh you need only look what Germany have done in building exports to China to realise our problem isn't the EU, it's us.

Whether it's right simply of itself to bring back sovereignty to the UK, well that's a separate thing, and I can understand (if not on balance accept) those who want powers returned even at some expense. I am though mightily annoyed that on the back of the returning powers the executive will this week seek to extend their powers in order we can still skip parliament in the name our parliamentary democracy.

Then there's the standards we have post Brexit across employment, the environment, matching EU investment, well again we'll have to wait and see. My assumption in advance is the Tories will seek to drop standards, and Labour are such a lunatic rabble they'll scream on some isolated issues but have no overall coherent plan. And it's more than a little annoying we'll be spending billions on the actual process and tying up the government from looking at so much elsewhere

There might be some silver linings as things stand, that RyanAir may leave us, and that with much reduced travel and grounded planes we no longer need the 3rd runway at Heathrow (not that I'd let them build it whatever)

I rest my case

Mellsblue wrote:I rest my case

There is rather the Government are declining to release their Brexit impact analysis. And that the only serious piece of work I've seen predicting we'll do well on the back of Brexit belongs to Minford, and Minford made some very odd choices in how he assembled data and drew conclusions - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf (should anyone really want to read a little around how Minford put his figures together)

If Minford isn't a familiar name then he gave rise to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

It's a democracy, people are free to vote as they wish, and I accept we're leaving and the Lib Dems policy of holding another referendum seems daft to me (as daft as UKIP's pledge to keep holding referendum until they got the vote they wanted, and when you're on a par with Farage it should indicate you've made a bad decision). But there just isn't any serious piece of work performed in competent fashion I've seen which doesn't concur with basic common sense that it's going to cost us money, though perhaps the price will be lower overall growth than an actual scaling back.

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:I rest my case

There is rather the Government are declining to release their Brexit impact analysis. And that the only serious piece of work I've seen predicting we'll do well on the back of Brexit belongs to Minford, and Minford made some very odd choices in how he assembled data and drew conclusions - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf (should anyone really want to read a little around how Minford put his figures together)

If Minford isn't a familiar name then he gave rise to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

It's a democracy, people are free to vote as they wish, and I accept we're leaving and the Lib Dems policy of holding another referendum seems daft to me (as daft as UKIP's pledge to keep holding referendum until they got the vote they wanted, and when you're on a par with Farage it should indicate you've made a bad decision). But there just isn't any serious piece of work performed in competent fashion I've seen which doesn't concur with basic common sense that it's going to cost us money, though perhaps the price will be lower overall growth than an actual scaling back.

At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:I rest my case

There is rather the Government are declining to release their Brexit impact analysis. And that the only serious piece of work I've seen predicting we'll do well on the back of Brexit belongs to Minford, and Minford made some very odd choices in how he assembled data and drew conclusions - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf (should anyone really want to read a little around how Minford put his figures together)

If Minford isn't a familiar name then he gave rise to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

It's a democracy, people are free to vote as they wish, and I accept we're leaving and the Lib Dems policy of holding another referendum seems daft to me (as daft as UKIP's pledge to keep holding referendum until they got the vote they wanted, and when you're on a par with Farage it should indicate you've made a bad decision). But there just isn't any serious piece of work performed in competent fashion I've seen which doesn't concur with basic common sense that it's going to cost us money, though perhaps the price will be lower overall growth than an actual scaling back.

At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

A shit load. Cheap labour and a british public who can afford to go there and european public able to go without pointless admin that they'd rather not bother with.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:I rest my case

There is rather the Government are declining to release their Brexit impact analysis. And that the only serious piece of work I've seen predicting we'll do well on the back of Brexit belongs to Minford, and Minford made some very odd choices in how he assembled data and drew conclusions - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf (should anyone really want to read a little around how Minford put his figures together)

If Minford isn't a familiar name then he gave rise to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

It's a democracy, people are free to vote as they wish, and I accept we're leaving and the Lib Dems policy of holding another referendum seems daft to me (as daft as UKIP's pledge to keep holding referendum until they got the vote they wanted, and when you're on a par with Farage it should indicate you've made a bad decision). But there just isn't any serious piece of work performed in competent fashion I've seen which doesn't concur with basic common sense that it's going to cost us money, though perhaps the price will be lower overall growth than an actual scaling back.

At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

I'd suggest yes you should care how your fellows are doing, if for no other reason than the society you live in and its ability to deliver services will impact you and your family. Ideally one would care by dint of being a reasonable person too, but even just self interest would suffice supposing people are able to think that far ahead.

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:
There is rather the Government are declining to release their Brexit impact analysis. And that the only serious piece of work I've seen predicting we'll do well on the back of Brexit belongs to Minford, and Minford made some very odd choices in how he assembled data and drew conclusions - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf (should anyone really want to read a little around how Minford put his figures together)

If Minford isn't a familiar name then he gave rise to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

It's a democracy, people are free to vote as they wish, and I accept we're leaving and the Lib Dems policy of holding another referendum seems daft to me (as daft as UKIP's pledge to keep holding referendum until they got the vote they wanted, and when you're on a par with Farage it should indicate you've made a bad decision). But there just isn't any serious piece of work performed in competent fashion I've seen which doesn't concur with basic common sense that it's going to cost us money, though perhaps the price will be lower overall growth than an actual scaling back.

At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

I'd suggest yes you should care how your fellows are doing, if for no other reason than the society you live in and its ability to deliver services will impact you and your family. Ideally one would care by dint of being a reasonable person too, but even just self interest would suffice supposing people are able to think that far ahead.

I suggest you listen to your own advice then. All you've done so far on this thread is moan how you've lost contracts, that we'll all be worse of - without stopping to think that might not be the case for 'all' - and that anyone who voted for leave is a retard. Doesn't sound like the acts of a reasonable person to me.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:
There is rather the Government are declining to release their Brexit impact analysis. And that the only serious piece of work I've seen predicting we'll do well on the back of Brexit belongs to Minford, and Minford made some very odd choices in how he assembled data and drew conclusions - http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit06.pdf (should anyone really want to read a little around how Minford put his figures together)

If Minford isn't a familiar name then he gave rise to - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40972776

It's a democracy, people are free to vote as they wish, and I accept we're leaving and the Lib Dems policy of holding another referendum seems daft to me (as daft as UKIP's pledge to keep holding referendum until they got the vote they wanted, and when you're on a par with Farage it should indicate you've made a bad decision). But there just isn't any serious piece of work performed in competent fashion I've seen which doesn't concur with basic common sense that it's going to cost us money, though perhaps the price will be lower overall growth than an actual scaling back.

At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

A shit load. Cheap labour and a british public who can afford to go there and european public able to go without pointless admin that they'd rather not bother with.

So, the middle classes then, not really us but rather people like you and me. How very egalitarian. Don't get me wrong, I like a cheap cleaner and cheap European holidays but I suspect those who can't afford either are not that worried these might now cost me more if their lot gets a little better.

Mellsblue wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

A shit load. Cheap labour and a british public who can afford to go there and european public able to go without pointless admin that they'd rather not bother with.

So, the middle classes then, not really us but rather people like you and me. How very egalitarian. Don't get me wrong, I like a cheap cleaner and cheap European holidays but I suspect those who can't afford either are not that worried these might now cost me more if their lot gets a little better.

What on earth are you on about? You were talking about the people of Scarborough who say that things have improved for them so I pointed out what they have to lose. If you are now actually talking about different people then I'm happy to talk about what they have to lose if you want to. If you are talking about the lowest paid and unemployed, they lose the opportunities to work for the hoteliers and restaurants who thrived on the tourist trade as people take fewer holidays and people from abroad come less. they lose regional aid, which is extremely unlikely o be replaced by a UK government. A shitty economy is shitty for pretty much everyone. actually it's least shitty for the middle class because they are likely to have relatively stable jobs and fat that can be trimmed from their lifestyle.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote: A shit load. Cheap labour and a british public who can afford to go there and european public able to go without pointless admin that they'd rather not bother with.

So, the middle classes then, not really us but rather people like you and me. How very egalitarian. Don't get me wrong, I like a cheap cleaner and cheap European holidays but I suspect those who can't afford either are not that worried these might now cost me more if their lot gets a little better.

What on earth are you on about? You were talking about the people of Scarborough who say that things have improved for them so I pointed out what they have to lose. If you are now actually talking about different people then I'm happy to talk about what they have to lose if you want to. If you are talking about the lowest paid and unemployed, they lose the opportunities to work for the hoteliers and restaurants who thrived on the tourist trade as people take fewer holidays and people from abroad come less. they lose regional aid, which is extremely unlikely o be replaced by a UK government. A shitty economy is shitty for pretty much everyone. actually it's least shitty for the middle class because they are likely to have relatively stable jobs and fat that can be trimmed from their lifestyle.

My apologies. When you said cheap labour I didn't possibly think you could mean Scarborough. The indigenous labour there is already cheap as there are hardly any jobs. Europeans didn't go to Scarborough looking for jobs as there weren't any.
The tourist trade in the UK is currently booming in relative terms. The weak pound has made it so.
No regional aid without the EU:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/40-m ... -the-coast
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/40-m ... tish-coast

As for the shitty economy, it may end up that way but, as I've already said, the economy in Scarborough was already shitty so what do they have to lose.

Mellsblue wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: So, the middle classes then, not really us but rather people like you and me. How very egalitarian. Don't get me wrong, I like a cheap cleaner and cheap European holidays but I suspect those who can't afford either are not that worried these might now cost me more if their lot gets a little better.

What on earth are you on about? You were talking about the people of Scarborough who say that things have improved for them so I pointed out what they have to lose. If you are now actually talking about different people then I'm happy to talk about what they have to lose if you want to. If you are talking about the lowest paid and unemployed, they lose the opportunities to work for the hoteliers and restaurants who thrived on the tourist trade as people take fewer holidays and people from abroad come less. they lose regional aid, which is extremely unlikely o be replaced by a UK government. A shitty economy is shitty for pretty much everyone. actually it's least shitty for the middle class because they are likely to have relatively stable jobs and fat that can be trimmed from their lifestyle.

My apologies. When you said cheap labour I didn't possibly think you could mean Scarborough. The indigenous labour there is already cheap as there are hardly any jobs. Europeans didn't go to Scarborough looking for jobs as there weren't any.
The tourist trade in the UK is currently booming in relative terms. The weak pound has made it so.
No regional aid without the EU:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/40-m ... -the-coast
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/40-m ... tish-coast

As for the shitty economy, it may end up that way but, as I've already said, the economy in Scarborough was already shitty so what do they have to lose.

Just because something is shitty, doesn't mean that it can't get shittier.

You'd think that the cheap labour wouldn't be a factor, but despite the levels of unemployment people still seem to have problems filling vacancies, certainly from the local population.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: At the risk of going over it all over again......who is this 'us' and should people who might do well personally out of Brexit care if the country as a whole isn't as well off.
Looking at my holidays so far this year, New York and France cost me a hell of a lot more than they would have done prior to the referendum but, on the other side of the coin, the hotel, restaurant and shop owners I spoke to whilst on the longstanding family tradition of a Scarborough august bank holiday break haven't had it so good in years. I'm not sure many in Scarborough would have much time for my complaints that my two other holidays had cost me a small fortune when their local economy has been on its arse for decades.
Now, the economy may go to sh** over the next ten years - not sure anybody is predicting that anymore - and as a nation won't even be able to afford to go to the likes of Scarborough for our summer hols but when places like that were already on their arse what did they have to lose.

I'd suggest yes you should care how your fellows are doing, if for no other reason than the society you live in and its ability to deliver services will impact you and your family. Ideally one would care by dint of being a reasonable person too, but even just self interest would suffice supposing people are able to think that far ahead.

I suggest you listen to your own advice then. All you've done so far on this thread is moan how you've lost contracts, that we'll all be worse of - without stopping to think that might not be the case for 'all' - and that anyone who voted for leave is a retard. Doesn't sound like the acts of a reasonable person to me.

Well losing contracts does hurt me, to the extent I now essentially don't get paid and thus all ongoing payments are met by my family and/or using up savings and that does vex me somewhat. However the bigger concern around Brexit, as I can always extricate myself from this mess, is that losing contracts has meant jobs being lost, either being moved overseas or simply outright culled. And that with the less certain future the firm in addition to reducing employment has backed away from investing, and that's a pattern I can all too easily repeating. I'd also be concerned about what future standards will be in any number of areas, what linkage we'll see on a security, scientific, cultural basis and so on and so on.

Also when saying all I don't mean every last individual solely at an individual level, more all within our one society, some individuals will always do better/worse but even if we do better as individuals in a given situation we're still inexorably to that society.

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:
I'd suggest yes you should care how your fellows are doing, if for no other reason than the society you live in and its ability to deliver services will impact you and your family. Ideally one would care by dint of being a reasonable person too, but even just self interest would suffice supposing people are able to think that far ahead.

I suggest you listen to your own advice then. All you've done so far on this thread is moan how you've lost contracts, that we'll all be worse of - without stopping to think that might not be the case for 'all' - and that anyone who voted for leave is a retard. Doesn't sound like the acts of a reasonable person to me.

Well losing contracts does hurt me, to the extent I now essentially don't get paid and thus all ongoing payments are met by my family and/or using up savings and that does vex me somewhat. However the bigger concern around Brexit, as I can always extricate myself from this mess, is that losing contracts has meant jobs being lost, either being moved overseas or simply outright culled. And that with the less certain future the firm in addition to reducing employment has backed away from investing, and that's a pattern I can all too easily repeating. I'd also be concerned about what future standards will be in any number of areas, what linkage we'll see on a security, scientific, cultural basis and so on and so on.

Also when saying all I don't mean every last individual solely at an individual level, more all within our one society, some individuals will always do better/worse but even if we do better as individuals in a given situation we're still inexorably to that society.

That is bad news for you, horrible. I've went through a similar situation in 2010 - when all the bankers free money ran out - and there is little worse than seeing savings dwindle, worrying when you'll start earning again and not being able to do anything about it.
However, this is how people born in to cut off, deprived areas have felt for years. Even during the boom years. That the economy doesn't work for them and that there aren't many signs it is going to move in their direction.
They will now be quite happy with the Brexit process so far and won't agree that it's going to make us all worse off. You might see job losses in your sector but employment across the board is up and people in places such as Scarborough might not agree that, as things stand, we are all worse off. That, of course, may change.
Anyway, I'm out. We did end up repeating old arguments as I feared. Though, that is the Brexit debate in microcosm. Unless you're Corbyn, that is. He's changed his stance so many times he seems to have decided to avoid any arguments at all. I hope things at work improve soon.

Mellsblue wrote:

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: I suggest you listen to your own advice then. All you've done so far on this thread is moan how you've lost contracts, that we'll all be worse of - without stopping to think that might not be the case for 'all' - and that anyone who voted for leave is a retard. Doesn't sound like the acts of a reasonable person to me.

Well losing contracts does hurt me, to the extent I now essentially don't get paid and thus all ongoing payments are met by my family and/or using up savings and that does vex me somewhat. However the bigger concern around Brexit, as I can always extricate myself from this mess, is that losing contracts has meant jobs being lost, either being moved overseas or simply outright culled. And that with the less certain future the firm in addition to reducing employment has backed away from investing, and that's a pattern I can all too easily repeating. I'd also be concerned about what future standards will be in any number of areas, what linkage we'll see on a security, scientific, cultural basis and so on and so on.

Also when saying all I don't mean every last individual solely at an individual level, more all within our one society, some individuals will always do better/worse but even if we do better as individuals in a given situation we're still inexorably to that society.

That is bad news for you, horrible. I've went through a similar situation in 2010 - when all the bankers free money ran out - and there is little worse than seeing savings dwindle, worrying when you'll start earning again and not being able to do anything about it.
However, this is how people born in to cut off, deprived areas have felt for years. Even during the boom years. That the economy doesn't work for them and that there aren't many signs it is going to move in their direction.
They will now be quite happy with the Brexit process so far and won't agree that it's going to make us all worse off. You might see job losses in your sector but employment across the board is up and people in places such as Scarborough might not agree that, as things stand, we are all worse off. That, of course, may change.
Anyway, I'm out. We did end up repeating old arguments as I feared. Though, that is the Brexit debate in microcosm. Unless you're Corbyn, that is. He's changed his stance so many times he seems to have decided to avoid any arguments at all. I hope things at work improve soon.

I have some sympathy, a lot actually, with those who felt the economy wasn't working for them. However they've at best lit upon the idea of doing something different on the basis of what do we have to lose, when there doesn't seem any realistic chance this do anything but more harm to their concerns. I'd further agree we've a lot of thinking/work to do on how do we replace roles/jobs lost to automation as that process is perhaps only just getting warmed up, but again I don't see leaving the EU as being any sort of solution, and as with Trump and his plans we can't go back to when the jobs these people seem to want did exist, the process only goes one way.

By the way, I don't know if you read the work Minford did, but other than he's about the only person predicting we'll do well out of this (whilst being backed by anything other than assumptions, and I'll acknowledge all economic modelling is something of a punt in the dark too) one of his other assumptions was that wage inequality will increase rapidly, so even the one person/group predicting we'll as a nation grow by leaving thinks it'll hurt the blue collar group hard.

And Labour might have changed what they say on the EU, a lot, but I don't get the sense the Glorious Leader™ has changed his tune one bit, he wants nationalisation and socialism, but sometimes we hear instead from Keir Starmer which may muddle the Labour message but isn't of any influence over Corbyn. As with those who feel the economy isn't working for them I do have some sympathy with Corbyn and his dreams of Socialism, but like he idea Brexit will improve things then Socialism seems to me a nutter's dream that works only in fantasy and will fall foul of reality. I wouldn't entirely mind if someone wanted to try and make socialism work and roll it out if it did, I'd still have reservations but I'll skirt over those here, I'd just really much rather we not be the poor bastard lab rats dropped into that experiment, and that such experiment be done far, far away, Mars sounds good to me.

Some of our bigger investors/owners are near pissing themselves laughing this afternoon. They've been asked to sign a letter endorsing the Brexit strategy as set out by May. Their first issue is there isn't a plan to scrutinise before one could even more onto whether it's good or bad

If the strategy is anything like her plans for immigration the laughing will stop the moment they read it.

Mellsblue wrote:If the strategy is anything like her plans for immigration the laughing will stop the moment they read it.

It's like she's fixated on the target she failed on as home secretary and can't move past it. The two in question who were laughing today had actually met with some persons in government recently, and some of the latest on immigration isn't close to what they were told would be happening, we haven't had this going on since John Major vacillated and seemingly said yes to different and opposing things depending on who was in the room.

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:If the strategy is anything like her plans for immigration the laughing will stop the moment they read it.

It's like she's fixated on the target she failed on as home secretary and can't move past it.

This. She's obsessed. It's the same with counting students as immigrants.

May:

Wanted to reduce immigration whilst Home Secretary

Campaigned to remain in the EU

Called a snap election to give her government an overall majority in parliament

We are now stuck with her as prime minister whilst the brexit "negotiations" take place, mainly because it would seem no other tory politician would touch the job with a barge pole.

canta_brian wrote:May:

Wanted to reduce immigration whilst Home Secretary

Campaigned to remain in the EU

Called a snap election to give her government an overall majority in parliament

We are now stuck with her as prime minister whilst the brexit "negotiations" take place, mainly because it would seem no other tory politician would touch the job with a barge pole.

Th tories are really in the shyte. Hoping they will last the full parliamentary term and corbyns bubble will burst. Brexit will make them even less popular and the electorate will hurt them next time out. Which is worrying considering the alternative.

Much of politics is confidence, or the portrayal or confidence and competence. May is screwed. Sadly the opportunity to remov her is rapidly disappearing. I was hoping that there could bthey some cross party collaboration, but that seems remote, especially as labour seem to not have settled on what policy they want to pursue.

I don't think the EU is in a better state when you look at the differing views of the member states, but they don't have to try hard to us to look incompetent.

Sandydragon wrote: Th tories are really in the shyte.

Tories, Labour and Lib Dems look in a right mess. Which leaves open the door for gains to be made with simplistic nationalistic bollocks by someone, maybe someone new, maybe the Tories or Labour, somehow I don't see the Lb Dems going that route.

Sandydragon wrote:

canta_brian wrote:May:

Wanted to reduce immigration whilst Home Secretary

Campaigned to remain in the EU

Called a snap election to give her government an overall majority in parliament

We are now stuck with her as prime minister whilst the brexit "negotiations" take place, mainly because it would seem no other tory politician would touch the job with a barge pole.

Th tories are really in the shyte. Hoping they will last the full parliamentary term and corbyns bubble will burst. Brexit will make them even less popular and the electorate will hurt them next time out. Which is worrying considering the alternative.

Much of politics is confidence, or the portrayal or confidence and competence. May is screwed. Sadly the opportunity to remov her is rapidly disappearing. I was hoping that there could bthey some cross party collaboration, but that seems remote, especially as labour seem to not have settled on what policy they want to pursue.

I don't think the EU is in a better state when you look at the differing views of the member states, but they don't have to try hard to us to look incompetent.

She'll last until we leave the EU and then all hell will break loose.

Digby wrote:

Sandydragon wrote: Th tories are really in the shyte.

Tories, Labour and Lib Dems look in a right mess. Which leaves open the door for gains to be made with simplistic nationalistic bollocks by someone, maybe someone new, maybe the Tories or Labour, somehow I don't see the Lb Dems going that route.

Once Brexit is done the Cons will have a big battle between the liberal side of the party and the idiots to the right to take control of the party. This will be brewing over the next 18 months and will explode when May starts to lose control post Brexit. I hope to goodness the moderates win. I can't think of anything more dispiriting than a GE between Corbyn (or his anointed successor) and say Leadsom/Fox. Eeerrrrrgggghhhhh