Why do we have such a poor record of producing quality 9s?

[Digby]

A few years back I'd have given up on Youngs and Care and would have been capping Dobby (Robson). In fairness Robson might show many of the same problems put under more pressure, and Youngs has been much better albeit someway from an ideal

As p/d will no doubt be fixated on sartorial matters Dan Robson isn't given the moniker Dobby because of the shirt, but rather for a free elf from a little known book about a wizard.

[Puja]

I'm curious how the worst anyone's ever seen of Slade compares to the (fairly frequent) poor version of Farrell. He's a maverick already after two starts?

Maverick wouldn't be my turn of phrase, but Slade also has bog-all experience of 12 and hasn't looked particularly striking on the few occasions when he has played there. Right now, he's not a first choice for Exeter, so I'm not sure as I see him as unjustly left out of the England 12 shirt.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

In hindsight, mercurial probably would have been a better choice of word.

Slade may not be a maverick as such, but he's definitely inconsistent and as Puja has said, he's not commanding a shirt (12 or otherwise) at Exeter, so he doesn't have much of a claim over an England place. Personally, I think his EPS place is under real threat.

[Spiffy]

In hindsight, mercurial probably would have been a better choice of word.

Slade may not be a maverick as such, but he's definitely inconsistent and as Puja has said, he's not commanding a shirt (12 or otherwise) at Exeter, so he doesn't have much of a claim over an England place. Personally, I think his EPS place is under real threat.

Poor old Slade is a bit of a conundrum. At his best he can be brilliant but Yes, consistency certainly is the problem. That and being juggled about in the backline. He is not as good a 10 as Ford, or as good a 13 as Joseph/Daly. Yet, if England wants a footballer/playmaker at 12 he may be a better long term option than Farrell, and clearly a more naturally talented rugby player. That will only happen if he plays regularly at 12 and that is not currently the case at Exeter. Maybe he has to move. It's hard to see Jones changing the Ford/Farrell axis, even though Farrell continues to show his limitations in midfield. Even then, Jones might go for a Teo/Tuilagi type of hard runner. Slade has a lot of class and it would be a pity to see such a player fall through the cracks, but he may just.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

You say Slade hasn't nailed down a shirt at Chiefs, that could be said of an awful lot of midfield players there with the way Baxter rotates the side. A point about Slade who never played any age grade rugby in Devon, his coach (who I know very well) that took him through the DPP from U13s upwards said he was always looking for the monster 20 yard pass at U13s when a simple 3 or 4 yard push pass would suffice. He has all the skills, it could be argued hes almost to skilful for his teammates at times if that makes sense.

[Puja]

You say Slade hasn't nailed down a shirt at Chiefs, that could be said of an awful lot of midfield players there with the way Baxter rotates the side.

Towards the business end of the season, the midfield tombola stopped happening and it was regularly Steenson, Devoto, Campagnaro.

Puja

[Oakboy]

A combination of Simpson, Cipriani and Slade could be great, but would more than likely be terrible. All three are inconsistent so the chances of all of them being in top form in the same game is slim ...

We can afford one maverick, possibly even two if we're in the mood, but three together at 9, 10 and 12 will never happen.

Since this is about 9s, why Simpson anyway? He's probably the fastest and at his best he can be very good, but I've never thought of him as better than Youngs or Care, nor would I consider him to be better than Robson.

I did have my tongue in my cheek, to an extent. Why always list the negative? I would just love to see us go balls-out to be positive and attacking.

Simpson does everything more quickly than Youngs and Care, IMO. That will do for a start. Had he been given a chance two years ago I think that his simple speed of arrival at the breakdown could have developed with international experience such that we could have got closer to top level SH performance than was achievable with Youngs or Care. Yes, there would have been hiccups but the overall running average of team performance would have been higher. I have always rated Simpson above Robson, as do many Wasps fans that I have heard talking about the two.

Cipriani is simply the most skilful FH we have. His hands are the best. Slade could have been (may still be?) a better IC than Farrell. I think every aspect of his skill-set is superior apart from place-kicking.

I would be more excited by that trio as an attacking combination than any other unit available. Will it happen? No chance.

[Mellsblue]

I love that we are discussing how flawed our scrumhalves are and we then have a suggestion of Simpson, Cipriani and Slade. All of whom have serious flaws in their game.

[Oakboy]

I love that we are discussing how flawed our scrumhalves are and we then have a suggestion of Simpson, Cipriani and Slade. All of whom have serious flaws in their game.

Their flaws are more fun!

I was only having a bit of a dream. We all know that Youngs and Farrell will start at the RWC so serious debate only relates to whether Farrell plays at 10 or 12 followed by who the third player will be.

[Raggs]

Simpson plays to the pace of a game, and will often slow it if somethings not quite right. Robson drives the pace higher. I'd much rather Robson than Simpson, especially with a Cips or Ford, who seem to get themselves into position quickly.

As for the 12, I'd back Eddie for whomever he preferred between Francis, Slade and Loz.

[Banquo]

Simpson plays to the pace of a game, and will often slow it if somethings not quite right. Robson drives the pace higher. I'd much rather Robson than Simpson, especially with a Cips or Ford, who seem to get themselves into position quickly.

yep

[Mikey Brown]

My big issue here is people are comparing the performances of guys who've been given 50-70 caps, and more dud performances than I can even remember, to show what they can do and grow in to their roles with guys who have only fleetingly been looked at. We're then saying that 10-ish cap Simpson/Cipriani/Slade (not that I'm arguing for all of those) are equally inconsistent.

How about we develop some of the guys with the fantastic skillsets? That's what I'm saying. How much more consistent would Slade actually need to be to be a far, far greater centre than Faz? He's produced more top class moments already than Faz has in 50-odd caps.

Again, I'm not saying Slade deserves the 12 shirt right now, far from it, but I wish we would take a little more of a chance on some of the guys that could really take this team to another level. I feel like these AIs might be the last chance for a Francis/Slade/Lozowski/Devoto who could really change our overall threat level in the backs. Teo will probably get the nod but to be fair he will make a big difference if he can consistently break the line at 12.

[Stom]

My big issue here is people are comparing the performances of guys who've been given 50-70 caps, and more dud performances than I can even remember, to show what they can do and grow in to their roles with guys who have only fleetingly been looked at. We're then saying that 10-ish cap Simpson/Cipriani/Slade (not that I'm arguing for all of those) are equally inconsistent.

How about we develop some of the guys with the fantastic skillsets? That's what I'm saying. How much more consistent would Slade actually need to be to be a far, far greater centre than Faz? He's produced more top class moments already than Faz has in 50-odd caps.

Again, I'm not saying Slade deserves the 12 shirt right now, far from it, but I wish we would take a little more of a chance on some of the guys that could really take this team to another level. I feel like these AIs might be the last chance for a Francis/Slade/Lozowski/Devoto who could really change our overall threat level in the backs. Teo will probably get the nod but to be fair he will make a big difference if he can consistently break the line at 12.

I guess it depends on what you see the role of the national team and the clubs.

The national team should be the absolute pinnacle of the game. It's perfectly reasonable for an absolutely amazing talent to use it as a finishing school, but generally the burden should fall on the clubs. So players like Slade, or Marchant, or Loz, or Sinckler, etc., shouldn't be learning on the job at international level.

We did that with coaches. Burt had to learn on the job. He was not an experienced and ready coach. And I think practically everyone would choose Eddie over him now. The one with the experience.

I generally believe that, unless the player is just incredible (Itoje), or we have a lack of viable alternatives (Underhill/TBCurry), we should be picking players who have already worked on their game at club level.

Which is one of the reasons that I did not call for Mikey to be dropped until now. I just did not feel Watson/whoever the hell else was ready. Now I do.

[Stom]

9, on the other hand, is different. We have 2 players who can do a job. But neither are really of the standard we would want or need. So I would be willing to drop one or two "unready" players into the deep end to see if they can swim.

But we could always just take the view that we're no worse off at 9 than all bar 2 teams. So why not stick with it, and pick someone new when they're ready in 3/4 years time.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

You say Slade hasn't nailed down a shirt at Chiefs, that could be said of an awful lot of midfield players there with the way Baxter rotates the side.

Towards the business end of the season, the midfield tombola stopped happening and it was regularly Steenson, Devoto, Campagnaro.

Puja

Slade was out with injury for a fair swag and didn't return till the end of the season

[Puja]

You say Slade hasn't nailed down a shirt at Chiefs, that could be said of an awful lot of midfield players there with the way Baxter rotates the side.

Towards the business end of the season, the midfield tombola stopped happening and it was regularly Steenson, Devoto, Campagnaro.

Puja

Slade was out with injury for a fair swag and didn't return till the end of the season

That doesn't really help his case - Exeter started looking a lot more consistent and went on their mental winning and bonus point run when he went off injured/with England and they stopped trying to crowbar him in somewhere.

He's undoubtedly a great player. Last season, he wasn't making Exeter a better team.

Puja

[Timbo]

Slade had an extended period at 10 (around March/April time) and played fairly well when Steenson was injured. They kept winning at any rate. Had he not picked up a slight knock I think Slade may have continued at 10 through till the end of the season.

[Scrumhead]

9, on the other hand, is different. We have 2 players who can do a job. But neither are really of the standard we would want or need. So I would be willing to drop one or two "unready" players into the deep end to see if they can swim.

But we could always just take the view that we're no worse off at 9 than all bar 2 teams. So why not stick with it, and pick someone new when they're ready in 3/4 years time.

I think your second paragraph is close to the truth.

That said, the longer we leave it to look at alternatives, the more of a disaster it would be if one or both of Youngs or Care were to pick up a badly timed injury just before the World Cup.

[Peat]

I guess it depends on what you see the role of the national team and the clubs.

The national team should be the absolute pinnacle of the game. It's perfectly reasonable for an absolutely amazing talent to use it as a finishing school, but generally the burden should fall on the clubs. So players like Slade, or Marchant, or Loz, or Sinckler, etc., shouldn't be learning on the job at international level.

For me, it goes further. It's not that it shouldn't be a school, it's that there simply aren't enough games for it to be a school. Oh, undoubtedly players learn lessons from it, probably more than they do per minute than from any other form of rugby, but but a player's doing well to pick up 600 minutes of international rugby a year. I'd imagine most pros are doing double that a month on the training paddock.

And if you can't take your lessons from 4 years of Premiership rugby, 2 years in the England squad, 7 caps and everything else... I really doubt an extra 20 caps would make the difference. I mean, 20 caps didn't make the difference for Twelvetrees. And that's two years of being first choice to invest in someone who may or may not make the step from it... just doesn't make sense. Some guys are lucky enough to be first choice at a time when they're still learning and do benefit from it, but that's simply luck of the draw.

[Spiffy]

You say Slade hasn't nailed down a shirt at Chiefs, that could be said of an awful lot of midfield players there with the way Baxter rotates the side.

Towards the business end of the season, the midfield tombola stopped happening and it was regularly Steenson, Devoto, Campagnaro.

Puja

Seem to remember that Whitten was a midfield regular, including the end of the season, and that Campagnaro got limited game time. He's a very good player though, with pace, power and footwork. Surprised he has not been sough by other clubs as a regular starter.

[Oakboy]

I guess it depends on what you see the role of the national team and the clubs.

The national team should be the absolute pinnacle of the game. It's perfectly reasonable for an absolutely amazing talent to use it as a finishing school, but generally the burden should fall on the clubs. So players like Slade, or Marchant, or Loz, or Sinckler, etc., shouldn't be learning on the job at international level.

For me, it goes further. It's not that it shouldn't be a school, it's that there simply aren't enough games for it to be a school. Oh, undoubtedly players learn lessons from it, probably more than they do per minute than from any other form of rugby, but but a player's doing well to pick up 600 minutes of international rugby a year. I'd imagine most pros are doing double that a month on the training paddock.

And if you can't take your lessons from 4 years of Premiership rugby, 2 years in the England squad, 7 caps and everything else... I really doubt an extra 20 caps would make the difference. I mean, 20 caps didn't make the difference for Twelvetrees. And that's two years of being first choice to invest in someone who may or may not make the step from it... just doesn't make sense. Some guys are lucky enough to be first choice at a time when they're still learning and do benefit from it, but that's simply luck of the draw.

Yes, I agree with that. What counts is a head coach's judgement of potential. Itoje did not take much guesswork. Others are not so obvious.

The hardest selection of all is when a player looks to have it but is not getting club game time. The argument could be that if they are good enough they'd be in the club XV but it's not necessarily that simple. Money comes into it - top foreign plsyers get starting places etc.

I thought 36 had it all, for example. Maybe, Eddie thinks Maunder does having picked him ahead of Robson. It would be fascinating to see who Eddie would pick at 9 and 21 if Youngs and Care were out as somebody commented.

I still think that experimentation should largely take place in the first 2 years of the RWC cycle. Perhaps, our long unbeaten run restricted Eddie's ideas a bit. Who knows? Looking ahead, I don't think we'll see much, if any, tinkering after the AIs. The young pretenders are probably looking post-2019.

Your 7 cap watershed is reasonable. Will any new player get there in the next 15 matches?

[Which Tyler]

Seem to remember that Whitten was a midfield regular, including the end of the season, and that Campagnaro got limited game time. He's a very good player though, with pace, power and footwork. Surprised he has not been sough by other clubs as a regular starter.

He's a very good player, but is he worth paying his salary for twice (once as transfer fee)? Especially if there's a doubt that he suits the premiership grind (otherwise he'd surely play more - t the mind of a potential hirer)

[Scrumhead]

I like Whitten. He's a very good Premiership player and to honest, I'm surprised none of the Irish provinces have gone in for him over the years.

It annoys me that Quins have so few quality centres in comparison to Exeter. I would happily take one of Whitten or Hill if they need to free up some space.

[Peat]

The hardest selection of all is when a player looks to have it but is not getting club game time. The argument could be that if they are good enough they'd be in the club XV but it's not necessarily that simple. Money comes into it - top foreign plsyers get starting places etc.

I thought 36 had it all, for example. Maybe, Eddie thinks Maunder does having picked him ahead of Robson. It would be fascinating to see who Eddie would pick at 9 and 21 if Youngs and Care were out as somebody commented.

I still think that experimentation should largely take place in the first 2 years of the RWC cycle. Perhaps, our long unbeaten run restricted Eddie's ideas a bit. Who knows? Looking ahead, I don't think we'll see much, if any, tinkering after the AIs. The young pretenders are probably looking post-2019.

Your 7 cap watershed is reasonable. Will any new player get there in the next 15 matches?

Agreed, but I think if you're genuinely believing such a player is your best option today, that's probably because you have no other options. And I don't think we're actually at that place anywhere in the squad.

Where it gets hard is "Can this guy be better than the incumbent in two years time" but only if you think giving them 20 games will be a make or break intervention.

And I used 7 caps simply because that's Slade's position! Will players get there? Any major injury to any of the front row (save loosehead where they might stick with Mullan) or the half-backs and they will. The other positions will require guys to force their ways in, which varies in terms of difficulty, but I wouldn't be surprised if some inexperienced guys hit double figures over the next two years.

p.s. I wish there was a standard clause in Premiership contracts where if a young player wasn't played for X percentage of the games he was fit, he's allowed to break contract if he wished.

[Scrumhead]

It's strange. On the one hand, 20 games doesn't sound like much, but when you consider Itoje only has 12 England caps, it does put in to perspective what a player can achieve in a short space of time if they take their chance.