RugbyRebels

Raggs wrote:Given the fake hia i don't mind Ireland winning that.

didn't they pull the same shit last year when they wanted to bring their scrum specialist back on against Wales

Raggs wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Raggs wrote:Given the fake hia i don't mind Ireland winning that.

The one called by the new independent Dr?
On a player who knackered his knee, and then got tackled onto his head? When the ref called for an HIA himself (initially)?

Didn't see any impact on the head in the replay.

Must admit, nor did I that time around. He clasps his head, but looks more like frustration.

Para would have been a more convincing HIA hollywood.

Well it was a fun last 10 mins at least.

From one angle i thought it looked like a vlash of heads but then from another there clearly wasn't. I guess the doc only saw one....

Didnt Nige signal HIA when he initially stopped play? If the pitchside doc says its a HIA, its a HIA.

Tough one to lose for France but credit Ireland for going through the phases they did to get into a position to make the winning kick.

The game was absolutely dire.

Buggaluggs wrote:

Raggs wrote:Given the fake hia i don't mind Ireland winning that.

didn't they pull the same shit last year when they wanted to bring their scrum specialist back on against Wales

Who were they faking an HIA to get back on this time? I didn't see the game and I'm curious.

Puja

fivepointer wrote:Didnt Nige signal HIA when he initially stopped play? If the pitchside doc says its a HIA, its a HIA.

Tough one to lose for France but credit Ireland for going through the phases they did to get into a position to make the winning kick.

The game was absolutely dire.

This. There are going to be edge cases, where the outcome looks silly, but if the independent medical expert says they need checking then you can't have laymen like the referee contradicting that.

Puja wrote:

Buggaluggs wrote:

Raggs wrote:Given the fake hia i don't mind Ireland winning that.

didn't they pull the same shit last year when they wanted to bring their scrum specialist back on against Wales

Who were they faking an HIA to get back on this time? I didn't see the game and I'm curious.

Puja

The sub 9 went down with a knee injury. It looked like he'd banged his head from one angle so the match Dr. called for him to have a HIA, meaning they could put Machenaud back on.

16th man wrote:

Puja wrote:

Buggaluggs wrote:
didn't they pull the same shit last year when they wanted to bring their scrum specialist back on against Wales

Who were they faking an HIA to get back on this time? I didn't see the game and I'm curious.

Puja

The sub 9 went down with a knee injury. It looked like he'd banged his head from one angle so the match Dr. called for him to have a HIA, meaning they could put Machenaud back on.

When the 10 went off in the first half they claimed an HIA then too to get more time to look at him, it would seem both instances were nothing to do with needing an HIA, though only the latter one saw a play able to re-enter the game when most likely that was, we'll say 'sneaky '

The 10 i can let go. Yes his knee was buggered but his head did connect with aki.

fivepointer wrote:Didnt Nige signal HIA when he initially stopped play? If the pitchside doc says its a HIA, its a HIA.

Tough one to lose for France but credit Ireland for going through the phases they did to get into a position to make the winning kick.

The game was absolutely dire.

No, no, no. This was real hard nosed rugby with players actually tackling lumps out of each other. Not like that candy floss Wales v. Scotland stuff. Not pretty but quite absorbing. Both teams will improve.

Raggs wrote:The 10 i can let go. Yes his knee was buggered but his head did connect with aki.

The 9 might have jolted his head going to ground. Both looked dodgy, though I don't know what the solution is when we want them to be happy to report and be observant around HIAs

Both had enough that we saw to justify an HIA, even if not cast-iron.
They were both called for by an independent Dr with access to more footage than we had. This needs would have had no interest in helping France, but a big interest in not leaving a concussed player on the pitch, which is a hell of a lot better than the previous situation.
IMO, this is a price well worth paying, and EPCR and PRL should look at doing the same thing.

For those who don't remember, leaving it club Drs means that Dom Ryan is official "winded" whilst clearly out cold, Ma'afu takes a knee to the head and loses all muscle tone, bit nothing happens, Faletau gets taken of "for an HIA" to assess his knee and North gets taken off "for an HIA" to check his shoulder with no HIA even performed (when he had lost consciousness). Oh, and the French prop taken off for a dubious HIA on the instructions of then French team Dr.
The previous system had this exact same flaws with the addition of greater cynicism and the addition of failing to actually conduct the HIA, or the Dr being the only person in the country who doesn't see the lights go out.

Spiffy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Didnt Nige signal HIA when he initially stopped play? If the pitchside doc says its a HIA, its a HIA.

Tough one to lose for France but credit Ireland for going through the phases they did to get into a position to make the winning kick.

The game was absolutely dire.

No, no, no. This was real hard nosed rugby with players actually tackling lumps out of each other. Not like that candy floss Wales v. Scotland stuff. Not pretty but quite absorbing. Both teams will improve.

Have to agree with Spiffy on this one. I really enjoyed the physicality of this game of chess, opposed to the earlier game (taking nothing away from Wales)

Digby wrote:

16th man wrote:

Puja wrote:
Who were they faking an HIA to get back on this time? I didn't see the game and I'm curious.

Puja

The sub 9 went down with a knee injury. It looked like he'd banged his head from one angle so the match Dr. called for him to have a HIA, meaning they could put Machenaud back on.

When the 10 went off in the first half they claimed an HIA then too to get more time to look at him, it would seem both instances were nothing to do with needing an HIA, though only the latter one saw a play able to re-enter the game when most likely that was, we'll say 'sneaky '

Diggers, the baby faced Ben Youngs lookalike definetly smacked his head ( to be honest that seemed more obvious than any damage to the knee) so no surprise he went for a HIA

Which Tyler wrote:Both had enough that we saw to justify an HIA, even if not cast-iron.
They were both called for by an independent Dr with access to more footage than we had. This needs would have had no interest in helping France, but a big interest in not leaving a concussed player on the pitch, which is a hell of a lot better than the previous situation.
IMO, this is a price well worth paying, and EPCR and PRL should look at doing the same thing.

For those who don't remember, leaving it club Drs means that Dom Ryan is official "winded" whilst clearly out cold, Ma'afu takes a knee to the head and loses all muscle tone, bit nothing happens, Faletau gets taken of "for an HIA" to assess his knee and North gets taken off "for an HIA" to check his shoulder with no HIA even performed (when he had lost consciousness). Oh, and the French prop taken off for a dubious HIA on the instructions of then French team Dr.
The previous system had this exact same flaws with the addition of greater cynicism and the addition of failing to actually conduct the HIA, or the Dr being the only person in the country who doesn't see the lights go out.

That's a completely different kettle of fish then - I hadn't realised it was an independent doctor doing it today. About time from the IRB and good result.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote:Both had enough that we saw to justify an HIA, even if not cast-iron.
They were both called for by an independent Dr with access to more footage than we had. This needs would have had no interest in helping France, but a big interest in not leaving a concussed player on the pitch, which is a hell of a lot better than the previous situation.
IMO, this is a price well worth paying, and EPCR and PRL should look at doing the same thing.

For those who don't remember, leaving it club Drs means that Dom Ryan is official "winded" whilst clearly out cold, Ma'afu takes a knee to the head and loses all muscle tone, bit nothing happens, Faletau gets taken of "for an HIA" to assess his knee and North gets taken off "for an HIA" to check his shoulder with no HIA even performed (when he had lost consciousness). Oh, and the French prop taken off for a dubious HIA on the instructions of then French team Dr.
The previous system had this exact same flaws with the addition of greater cynicism and the addition of failing to actually conduct the HIA, or the Dr being the only person in the country who doesn't see the lights go out.

Yet if a player is clearly injured anyway, the HIA is an irrelevance. This needs to be looked at imo.

Is the independent match doctor French? Since we have seen "independent" television producers lose footage for replays in the past.

I don't want to discourage players getting taken off for HIA's, and there are plenty of examples of this happening when they should have gone off, but equally I do think that a match doctor needs to show an incident in the footage that backs up the call.

Raggs wrote:Is the independent match doctor French? Since we have seen "independent" television producers lose footage for replays in the past.

I don't want to discourage players getting taken off for HIA's, and there are plenty of examples of this happening when they should have gone off, but equally I do think that a match doctor needs to show an incident in the footage that backs up the call.

To whom?

Stom wrote: Yet if a player is clearly injured anyway, the HIA is an irrelevance. This needs to be looked at imo.

Opens up claiming another injury as a means to sidestepping a HIA. "We think he's done his knee ref, there's no need for a HIA" 30 seconds of treatment later "oh it was just jarred, he's fine to continue now we've cold sprayed it".

16th man wrote:

Raggs wrote:Is the independent match doctor French? Since we have seen "independent" television producers lose footage for replays in the past.

I don't want to discourage players getting taken off for HIA's, and there are plenty of examples of this happening when they should have gone off, but equally I do think that a match doctor needs to show an incident in the footage that backs up the call.

To whom?

In cases such as these, an independent medical team? The citing officer perhaps? Just someone else to show them that there was an impact to the skull. I know it seems ridiculous, but not every call would need to go to such extremes, but in a case where there's seemingly no impact to the head, it surely can't stop there?

p/d wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Didnt Nige signal HIA when he initially stopped play? If the pitchside doc says its a HIA, its a HIA.

Tough one to lose for France but credit Ireland for going through the phases they did to get into a position to make the winning kick.

The game was absolutely dire.

No, no, no. This was real hard nosed rugby with players actually tackling lumps out of each other. Not like that candy floss Wales v. Scotland stuff. Not pretty but quite absorbing. Both teams will improve.

Have to agree with Spiffy on this one. I really enjoyed the physicality of this game of chess, opposed to the earlier game (taking nothing away from Wales)

I'm with Fivepointer on this one. I don't think you can wave away the high error counts and sheer number of stupid penalties by saying both teams will improve, and think the game was a good one simply because they were hitting each other hard. Yes the Wales Scotland game had some poor defending, and a lot of handling errors, but at least they were in the service of some ambition and discernible game plans, as opposed to; do the basics and wait for silly penalties (Ireland) and god knows (France.) To praise the latter as hard nosed rugby has a whiff of the "unseen work" about it.

Raggs wrote:

16th man wrote:

Raggs wrote:Is the independent match doctor French? Since we have seen "independent" television producers lose footage for replays in the past.

I don't want to discourage players getting taken off for HIA's, and there are plenty of examples of this happening when they should have gone off, but equally I do think that a match doctor needs to show an incident in the footage that backs up the call.

To whom?

In cases such as these, an independent medical team? The citing officer perhaps? Just someone else to show them that there was an impact to the skull. I know it seems ridiculous, but not every call would need to go to such extremes, but in a case where there's seemingly no impact to the head, it surely can't stop there?

The call was made by an independent doctor. If you question their independence and ask for further review, then that has to be from a medical professional too, but how can you guarantee their indepence if you don't trust the first ones? How many layers of review until you're happy?

Where do you draw the line on which calls go to these extremes?

We need at least a couple of years of treating head knocks as really serious, which they are, in order to ingrain into players, coaches, officials and fans that it isn't just "having your bell rung" and you can shake it off, or even worse "he can stand up, we'll chuck him back on", but a potentially life impacting incident that needs to be handled accordingly. Once we've shifted people's mentality to that, then maybe we can trust people to start assessing them critically, but, as has been shown time and time again, we're nowhere near that yet.

How independent is the doctor? Is he like the officials, and English, Scottish or some other uninvolved nation? Or is he French? Because TV producers could be argued to be independent, but TMO footage can magically disappear at key times during games (only for the system to recover fully a few minutes later when the call can go for the French team).

I agree that we need to err on the side of caution, which is why I'm more than happy with the 10 going off for an HIA, since there was a clear impact on the head, as well as the injured knee. As for drawing the line, just 1 more review is fine, after the fact and no longer under time constraints that a match doctor would be. If the match doctor can simply show the footage he saw that he felt meant an HIA was the right call, then no problem, no need for it to be a lights out scenario, just an impact to the head.