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Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:24 pm
by Tigersman
The RFU won’t sack him before the World Cup regardless of results.
Who else is about? Jake White!!!!!
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:09 pm
by Warrior85
That South African pack is massive! Vermuelen and Whitley in the same back row is huge! The front row is possibly the best in the world at the moment!! I really worry for us at scrum time!
I think England may just get bullied on Saturday!
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:16 pm
by richy678
fivepointer wrote:Can see why Manu on the bench as he hast been involved with England for a number of years. Te'o does have recent experience of playing, so that would have just won out. Manu from bench with 20-25 to go is the right way to bring him back in.
Elsewhere i'm surprised Hepburn starts ahead of Moon. I suspect his carrying work got him the nod.
No lock at 6 is god news. Curry continuing at 7 i like and as a fan of Wilson i'm delighted he's starting. He has played a bit at 8 so he's not completely new to the position. Mercer on the bench seems the right call.
Farrell widely expected to start at 10 so now we have to see how he directs this team.
Pleased that Nowell gets in ahead of Ashton and Daly stays at FB.
In the circumstances not the worst side that could have been selected, but the lack of experience at prop and in the back row is really quite alarming. Sinckler has 1 start at Twickenham, the other props have 2 starts (Williams) between them and none of the back row have played a test in England.
Sense
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:35 pm
by Puja
That appears to be Guscott on record as expecting 2 from 4.
Puja
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:27 pm
by Beasties
Warrior85 wrote:That South African pack is massive! Vermuelen and Whitley in the same back row is huge! The front row is possibly the best in the world at the moment!! I really worry for us at scrum time!
I think England may just get bullied on Saturday!
They're marginally bigger than Wilson and Shields. According to the stats I can find:
Whitely 6'4" 17st 5lbs
Vermeulen 6'4" 18st 6lbs
Shields 6'4" 17st 7lbs
Wilson 6'3" 17st 9lbs
Curry is 6lbs lighter than Kolisi.
Mind, I'll be surprised if Sinckler doesn't struggle at scrumtime.
Edit: Swap Wilson for Billy/Hughes and it's us who have the huge backrow.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:28 pm
by p/d
Puja wrote:
That appears to be Guscott on record as expecting 2 from 4.
Puja
Yep. Though what he is really saying is 1 from 3. A year out from the WC and playing at home that is a depressing expectation
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:33 pm
by twitchy
Stom wrote:twitchy wrote:Who would expect that england team to beat SA and NZ? Let alone sack the coach if they don't?
I would. I actually don't think much of this NZ team. Watching some of the matches, the defense has been atrocious.
Can you pm me your dealer.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:27 am
by Scrumhead
Beasties wrote:Warrior85 wrote:That South African pack is massive! Vermuelen and Whitley in the same back row is huge! The front row is possibly the best in the world at the moment!! I really worry for us at scrum time!
I think England may just get bullied on Saturday!
They're marginally bigger than Wilson and Shields. According to the stats I can find:
Whitely 6'4" 17st 5lbs
Vermeulen 6'4" 18st 6lbs
Shields 6'4" 17st 7lbs
Wilson 6'3" 17st 9lbs
Curry is 6lbs lighter than Kolisi.
Mind, I'll be surprised if Sinckler doesn't struggle at scrumtime.
Edit: Swap Wilson for Billy/Hughes and it's us who have the huge backrow.
Yeah, but for me that underlined the difference between size and physicality. I believe a fair bit of it is psychological. SA forwards in particular seem to be able to bring a different level of aggression/disregard for their own bodies. Kaino is another example of a guy who is not outstandingly big but is incredibly physical.
I know he’s not available, but Genge is the best example of this for England. He’s not that big but he has a level of ferocity to his game that makes him hard to stop and very hard-hitting in defence.
As a slight caveat, there is a stoic character that players like Robshaw and Wilson has where they will just keep tackling whatever comes their way. Not always dominant, but always effective.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:39 am
by Renniks
I’m beginning to get the blind optimism I have before every England test
I’m expecting our attack to find a way through
Our defence to be okay
And if we can find any kind of parity at the breakdown I’m expecting a decent scoring game for both teams with England to win
But I know that this is all bollocks and just my brain tricking me
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:40 am
by Beasties
Indeed, but I was just making the point that our media often like to make out that the oppo are mahoosive and we're tiny when the facts just don't back that up. I totally take your point though. Collins was another who punched way above his weight. Fearns could've been ours but then he turned into a twot.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:18 am
by TheDasher
Beasties wrote:Indeed, but I was just making the point that our media often like to make out that the oppo are mahoosive and we're tiny when the facts just don't back that up. I totally take your point though. Collins was another who punched way above his weight. Fearns could've been ours but then he turned into a twot.
I am not one of these people who obsesses over size when selecting a team. I really look forward to seeing Hepburn for example, and I like a mobile 7 like Curry. However... I believe it would be sensible to have Attwood (or Slater) on the bench over Ewels and I would've picked Morgan at 8 for his carrying power. These changes would've been form led primarily but these guys do add the bulk that helps against SA. It'll be irritating if we do get thrown around up front when Eddie can call on these players.
That said, it's not a small pack that he's picked and in Sinkler, Teo, Tuilagi and Itoje we have some carrying options. I may have started Williams as the older I get the more I realize that props who carry are a luxury, scrummaging is everything. Sinkler of the bench is also a nice card to play.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:29 am
by Digby
Props who carry are not a luxury, still less if you don't have carriers in the backrow
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:30 am
by Digby
Beasties wrote:Warrior85 wrote:That South African pack is massive! Vermuelen and Whitley in the same back row is huge! The front row is possibly the best in the world at the moment!! I really worry for us at scrum time!
I think England may just get bullied on Saturday!
They're marginally bigger than Wilson and Shields. According to the stats I can find:
Whitely 6'4" 17st 5lbs
Vermeulen 6'4" 18st 6lbs
Shields 6'4" 17st 7lbs
Wilson 6'3" 17st 9lbs
Curry is 6lbs lighter than Kolisi.
Mind, I'll be surprised if Sinckler doesn't struggle at scrumtime.
Edit: Swap Wilson for Billy/Hughes and it's us who have the huge backrow.
Lbs sounds like a horribly arcane unit of measurement, is it little bits of steroids?
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:36 am
by TheDasher
Digby wrote:Props who carry are not a luxury, still less if you don't have carriers in the backrow
Ok but you see my point. We want a dominant scrummage primarily and we need the props to do it. There were so many "Mako Vunipola is world class" statements flying around for years during which time he scrummaged like a beanbag. Nothing more depressing than watching England being demolished at scrum time; hence why Marler is a real loss.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:41 am
by Oakboy
Our second row hardly gets a mention. SA's is formidable. Itoje may hold his own but Kruis's ability to match his opponents in every aspect is crucial. I have reservations. In terms of pure in-your-face aggression, I can understand Dasher mentioning Attwood or Slater, even as a bench option.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:20 am
by p/d
Kruis back and in form is just what the pack needs. Mouthy can get on with his game whilst Kruis dogs it out.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:36 am
by Raggs
My problem with Kruis is he strikes me as someone who reaches international standard in rich form, but doesn't have the permanent class, if you see what I mean. Although there's not really many other options at the moment.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:38 am
by Beasties
TheDasher wrote:Digby wrote:Props who carry are not a luxury, still less if you don't have carriers in the backrow
Ok but you see my point. We want a dominant scrummage primarily and we need the props to do it. There were so many "Mako Vunipola is world class" statements flying around for years during which time he scrummaged like a beanbag. Nothing more depressing than watching England being demolished at scrum time; hence why Marler is a real loss.
Scrummaging was always his obv weak point but he has improved considerably as he's got older. He's still not formidable but he's good enough now for it to not be a weakness.
I would've started Williams in preference to Sinckler too but I can see why Eddie's wanting his carrying. I'm just not sure it's gonna pan out like that though, I fear that Sinckler's gonna be too knackered to do much in the way of positive carrying.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:46 am
by Mikey Brown
For what it’s worth isn’t Malherbe generally viewed in a similar way? Has looked great off the bench and in the loose but only recently being trusted to be destructive from a start?
He’s the ginger loosehead right or have I got that the wrong way round?
Kruis is at least supposed to be the best scrummager on the tighthead isn’t he?
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:57 am
by TheDasher
Beasties wrote:TheDasher wrote:Digby wrote:Props who carry are not a luxury, still less if you don't have carriers in the backrow
Ok but you see my point. We want a dominant scrummage primarily and we need the props to do it. There were so many "Mako Vunipola is world class" statements flying around for years during which time he scrummaged like a beanbag. Nothing more depressing than watching England being demolished at scrum time; hence why Marler is a real loss.
Scrummaging was always his obv weak point but he has improved considerably as he's got older. He's still not formidable but he's good enough now for it to not be a weakness.
I would've started Williams in preference to Sinckler too but I can see why Eddie's wanting his carrying. I'm just not sure it's gonna pan out like that though, I fear that Sinckler's gonna be too knackered to do much in the way of positive carrying.
Re Vunipola, I agree, I was making the point that he was lauded as world class when his scrummaging was still shit. It's cerainly far better now.
Agree on Sinckler. I think he'll get knackered quickly and we may not see his beastly carrying enough as a result of it.
Despite everything said thus far, our pack is not a pushover... that's still a big back five generally and Sinkler is a unit. Hepburn tackles like an exocet and is good at the breakdown and whilst Hartley shouldn't be in the squad for me, he's capable of getting pretty up for it.
Our backline can cause them problems.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:35 am
by Scrumhead
Mikey Brown wrote:For what it’s worth isn’t Malherbe generally viewed in a similar way? Has looked great off the bench and in the loose but only recently being trusted to be destructive from a start?
He’s the ginger loosehead right or have I got that the wrong way round?
Kruis is at least supposed to be the best scrummager on the tighthead isn’t he?
No. You’ve got it the wrong way around. Kitshoff is the ginger loosehead. He’s actually a strong all rounder, he’s just been stuck behind Beast.
Kruis is regarded as the best scrummaging lock we have. Eddie should have brought Attwood in to the squad though.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:38 am
by Scrumhead
Oakboy wrote:Our second row hardly gets a mention. SA's is formidable. Itoje may hold his own but Kruis's ability to match his opponents in every aspect is crucial. I have reservations. In terms of pure in-your-face aggression, I can understand Dasher mentioning Attwood or Slater, even as a bench option.
I agree. I don’t think it’s been overlooked, but it’s the only part of our pack that has a vague semblance of being ‘first choice’. Definitely in comparison to the front and back rows anyway.
I’d have Launchbury ahead of Kruis, but Itoje and Kruis are a proven partnership and at least this way, we’re not playing a lock at 6.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:40 am
by Mikey Brown
Yep. Always been a big Atwood fan. Him coming off the bench was always one of the highlights of the Lancaster era until he started screwing him around.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:43 am
by twitchy
Manu injured, ashton in.
Re: England vs South Africa
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:44 am
by Mikey Brown
Of course.