RugbyRebels

fivepointer wrote:Can only think that Williams wasnt 100% fit last week, hence Cole was in the 23.
He's a good carrier, good tackler and is terrific at clearing out people at rucks. He's far more active than Cole, who to be fair has upped his game outside the scrum.
And there was nothing wrong with Tim Payne, though i'd argue that Wiliams is far more physical and far more dynamic.
Someone who i thought might get a look in this season was Henry Thomas. His scrummaging seems to have come on a lot and he is tremendous in the loose.

Agreed with all that. Harry Williams has, objectively, done very well for England off the bench as an impact player. His chop tackling and scrummaging have been very effective. As a starter he’s struggled, but I see no reason why he shouldn’t be persevered with.

Honestly, if we ditched everyone this board deemed underwhelming after a few starts we’d have no team.

Henry Thomas is quality. I’d love to see him get a chance with England.

Timbo wrote:
Honestly, if we ditched everyone this board deemed underwhelming after a few starts we’d have no team.

Good point, that. The snag is that we all have favourites. These days there are few players who walk straight in and suit the shirt totally. Most need persevering with and that is where we all get aggrieved.

Two examples of Jones's favourites are Slade and Shields, both variously condemned on here by some/most respectively. Slade is now looking the part. Who is to say that Shields won't, eventually (not that I can see it, myself)? The controversy comes over how long is a fair trial and who, at the same time, is not getting a chance.

Wilson was touted for a long time and ignored. Now he looks settled. Might Armand have been as good as him or Shields?

The other point, of course, is the team ceiling. Certain players will always provide a limit to that, Youngs being the most obvious.

fivepointer wrote:Can only think that Williams wasnt 100% fit last week, hence Cole was in the 23.
He's a good carrier, good tackler and is terrific at clearing out people at rucks. He's far more active than Cole, who to be fair has upped his game outside the scrum.
And there was nothing wrong with Tim Payne, though i'd argue that Wiliams is far more physical and far more dynamic.
Someone who i thought might get a look in this season was Henry Thomas. His scrummaging seems to have come on a lot and he is tremendous in the loose.

I've been very disappointed with Williams's cameos across the AIs from doing the minute-by-minute things as he always seemed to pop up with mistakes or lazy play. Hopefully, he'll show me what you've seen if he gets a chance against Wales.

Agreed on Thomas. Sadly it looks like his chance has now passed.

Puja

Thomas’ chance has passed as far as the 6 Nations is concerned which probably also means the World Cup, but he’s only 27 and could still have a chance of more caps.

Post World Cup, I imagine we’ll be going for younger options like Stuart but 28 wouldn’t be old in tighthead terms.

There does seem to be lot of very good young tight heads coming through, so I imagine a couple of those guys will be backed post World Cup.

Oakboy wrote:

Timbo wrote:
Honestly, if we ditched everyone this board deemed underwhelming after a few starts we’d have no team.

Good point, that. The snag is that we all have favourites. These days there are few players who walk straight in and suit the shirt totally. Most need persevering with and that is where we all get aggrieved.

Two examples of Jones's favourites are Slade and Shields, both variously condemned on here by some/most respectively. Slade is now looking the part. Who is to say that Shields won't, eventually (not that I can see it, myself)? The controversy comes over how long is a fair trial and who, at the same time, is not getting a chance.

Wilson was touted for a long time and ignored. Now he looks settled. Might Armand have been as good as him or Shields?

The other point, of course, is the team ceiling. Certain players will always provide a limit to that, Youngs being the most obvious.

Not entirely sure it’s even true at this time. Other than Youngs, and Daly under the high ball I’m sure we’re all pretty happy with this team.
Other than Ford over Farrell, and the aforementioned Youngs, I wouldn’t change anything......other than running the ball a bit more.

TheDasher wrote:To people saying Cole is better than Williams... just imagine Cole coming on and giving away a penalty in front of the sticks that loses us the game. It's more likely to be him than anyone else to be honest. Cole is more talented definitely, but in terms of what we want from someone, i.e. replacing Sinkler on 65/70 mins, Williams is bloody solid. He's also scrummaged bloody well coming on late for England.

Genge all day long over Moon. Again, one of the big things against Ireland was the aggression and physicality - we've lost Mako so let's replace him with another top ball carrier who wants to make a big statement no doubt.

so...Sinckler goes off hurt after 10 mins, who do you want?

Timbo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Can only think that Williams wasnt 100% fit last week, hence Cole was in the 23.
He's a good carrier, good tackler and is terrific at clearing out people at rucks. He's far more active than Cole, who to be fair has upped his game outside the scrum.
And there was nothing wrong with Tim Payne, though i'd argue that Wiliams is far more physical and far more dynamic.
Someone who i thought might get a look in this season was Henry Thomas. His scrummaging seems to have come on a lot and he is tremendous in the loose.

Agreed with all that. Harry Williams has, objectively, done very well for England off the bench as an impact player. His chop tackling and scrummaging have been very effective. As a starter he’s struggled, but I see no reason why he shouldn’t be persevered with.

Honestly, if we ditched everyone this board deemed underwhelming after a few starts we’d have no team.

That would make sense (aside from the bit about having no team, which is a tad OTT), if only the other guy didn't have 86 England and 3 lions caps; and he isn't being ditched as Cole was in the squad last week. Cole's form is good this season, and he was excellent off the bench last week.

Is Henry Thomas really only 27? Good lord

I was a fan of Williams before he got a cap. He started well for Eng but he has underwhelmed in the most recent matches. One of the reasons I wanted him in the squad was that Cole really wasn't justifying his place. Now Cole is performing again, and more importantly Sinckler has shocked me with his improvements in every area, I would be happy to see Henry Thomas move into third place in the pecking order. The only thing missing with Thomas (apart from not being fit to play obvs) was scrummaging, and he's shown huge improvements in the last couple of years now. I very much doubt Eddie would take a look at him at this late stage unless injuries force it.

I’m fairly sure Thomas was in a recent training squad so I think he’s on the radar.

I agree with you on Williams. He made a reasonably promising start but since then (apart from being part of a few decent scrums) he’s been at best anonymous and at worst, outright poor.

Banquo wrote:

TheDasher wrote:To people saying Cole is better than Williams... just imagine Cole coming on and giving away a penalty in front of the sticks that loses us the game. It's more likely to be him than anyone else to be honest. Cole is more talented definitely, but in terms of what we want from someone, i.e. replacing Sinkler on 65/70 mins, Williams is bloody solid. He's also scrummaged bloody well coming on late for England.

Genge all day long over Moon. Again, one of the big things against Ireland was the aggression and physicality - we've lost Mako so let's replace him with another top ball carrier who wants to make a big statement no doubt.

so...Sinckler goes off hurt after 10 mins, who do you want?

Williams if that happens, because I'd be comfortable with that risk. Most games, Sinkler won't get injured and hence I'd keep him on for 65/70.

Williams is solid.

Banquo wrote:

TheDasher wrote:To people saying Cole is better than Williams... just imagine Cole coming on and giving away a penalty in front of the sticks that loses us the game. It's more likely to be him than anyone else to be honest. Cole is more talented definitely, but in terms of what we want from someone, i.e. replacing Sinkler on 65/70 mins, Williams is bloody solid. He's also scrummaged bloody well coming on late for England.

Genge all day long over Moon. Again, one of the big things against Ireland was the aggression and physicality - we've lost Mako so let's replace him with another top ball carrier who wants to make a big statement no doubt.

so...Sinckler goes off hurt after 10 mins, who do you want?

By the way Banquo, I know where you're coming from. I've always loved Cole, he's more 'talented' than Williams. I just got fed up with his stupid decision making and penalty count, it became so fcking predictable. Williams when fit ticks all boxes well and I think can be relied upon. This is all said in the context of Sinkler being clear number 1, so I'm assessing these guys as his replacement and who suits that role better.

TheDasher wrote:

Banquo wrote:

TheDasher wrote:To people saying Cole is better than Williams... just imagine Cole coming on and giving away a penalty in front of the sticks that loses us the game. It's more likely to be him than anyone else to be honest. Cole is more talented definitely, but in terms of what we want from someone, i.e. replacing Sinkler on 65/70 mins, Williams is bloody solid. He's also scrummaged bloody well coming on late for England.

Genge all day long over Moon. Again, one of the big things against Ireland was the aggression and physicality - we've lost Mako so let's replace him with another top ball carrier who wants to make a big statement no doubt.

so...Sinckler goes off hurt after 10 mins, who do you want?

By the way Banquo, I know where you're coming from. I've always loved Cole, he's more 'talented' than Williams. I just got fed up with his stupid decision making and penalty count, it became so fcking predictable. Williams when fit ticks all boxes well and I think can be relied upon. This is all said in the context of Sinkler being clear number 1, so I'm assessing these guys as his replacement and who suits that role better.

Cole seems a better bet than me, especially as we know he can go 80 mins if necessary and intl level, and I suspect Williams can't, and haven't seen the boxes he has ticked internationally. Would you trust him to go 65-70 mins if necessary- you do have to look at the replacement element as opposed to 'finisher'. That's one of the conundrums of the likes of Manu as well- do you hamper the ability to vary the game by having a like for like type of replacement (say Teo), vs having to change the game plan a lot of he is injured and Faz has to move to 12?

England have encountered further problems at loosehead prop in the build-up to their Six Nations match with Wales a week on Saturday after Ellis Genge picked up an ankle injury in training.

Genge failed to finish Thursday’s training session because of soreness in an ankle and, while England are hopeful there will not be “any major consequences”, it is an unwanted disruption for Eddie Jones, who is already without Mako Vunipola for the rest of the championship.

Borthwick didn’t seem very concerned about Genge’s knock when he was interviewed.

Rumour is Ashton crocked

England squad in full
Forwards: Cole (Leicester Tigers), Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), T Curry (Sale Sharks), Earl (Saracens), Ewels (Bath Rugby), Genge (Leicester Tigers), George (Saracens), Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs), Hughes (Wasps), Kruis (Saracens), Launchbury (Wasps), Lawes (Northampton Saints), Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Shields (Wasps), Sinckler (Harlequins), Singleton (Worcester Warriors), B Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)

Backs: Brown (Harlequins), Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Daly (Wasps), Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Farrell (Saracens), Ford (Leicester Tigers), May (Leicester Tigers), Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Robson (Wasps), Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Te'o (Worcester Warriors), Thorley (Gloucester Rugby), Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

JJ seems to have his work cut out to get into the RWC squad by the by.

Banquo wrote:Rumour is Ashton crocked

Confirmed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47273242

Coka it is then!

Banquo wrote:JJ seems to have his work cut out to get into the RWC squad by the by.

Like Watson, I'd say that he has enough credit in the bank to be in consideration even if he doesn't play a significant how minute of the 6N

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:Rumour is Ashton crocked

Confirmed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47273242

Coka it is then!

Hopefully- likely be on bench, with Nowell starting. Or Brown starting. Or Thorley on bench. Who knows w Eddie.

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:Rumour is Ashton crocked

Confirmed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47273242

After last weekend, that is terrific news!

Puja

Selection by injury seems to be working a treat.

Which Tyler wrote:

Banquo wrote:Rumour is Ashton crocked

Confirmed: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47273242

Coka it is then!

Banquo wrote:JJ seems to have his work cut out to get into the RWC squad by the by.

Like Watson, I'd say that he has enough credit in the bank to be in consideration even if he doesn't play a significant how minute of the 6N

I dunno, he’s never been an especial favourite of Eddies