RugbyRebels

- Straw manning
- Reductio ad absurdum
- APR


I won't rise to your bait good sir and I suggest puja follows suit.

Puja wrote:

APR wrote:

twitchy wrote:I don't think anyone really needs this explained to them. Shitting on people that come from persecuted minority groups is pretty low and makes the sport look bad.

Rugby is supposed to be physical and some times violent but played with respect between players. We all know that often isn't the case but at the highest level they should act accordingly.

Oh dear! "Shitting on people that come from persecuted minority groups is pretty low and makes the sport look bad." "ungentlemanly conduct" perhaps, but surely not a hate crime in this particular instance? And if this logic applied, then most rugby games would generate to 2-a-side. For example...
Fat people are a "persecuted" minority, so exactly the same logic applies. Ginger people are a minority, so ditto. Ditto short people, tall people, English people in Wales and Scotland, referees, umpires, bstards , scrum halfs, etc etc etc. Can't help but think that this whole issue actually does a genuine disservice to those who are being "genuinely" racially abused. Heard one comment recently which said it was only a short step from the Gipsy Boy comment (directed at a prop who is proud of his gypsy heritage) to the next Holocaust. As to the "its a crime if the intention is an "intent to upset" issue" - oh come on! Welcome to thought-crime England 2016......

Out of interest Andy, would you happen to be white, straight, male, cis-gendered, English-born and generally part of every societally powerful group that there is going?

Puja

That's pretty much the demographic that is least likely to go to university.......

Puja wrote:

APR wrote:

twitchy wrote:I don't think anyone really needs this explained to them. Shitting on people that come from persecuted minority groups is pretty low and makes the sport look bad.

Rugby is supposed to be physical and some times violent but played with respect between players. We all know that often isn't the case but at the highest level they should act accordingly.

Oh dear! "Shitting on people that come from persecuted minority groups is pretty low and makes the sport look bad." "ungentlemanly conduct" perhaps, but surely not a hate crime in this particular instance? And if this logic applied, then most rugby games would generate to 2-a-side. For example...
Fat people are a "persecuted" minority, so exactly the same logic applies. Ginger people are a minority, so ditto. Ditto short people, tall people, English people in Wales and Scotland, referees, umpires, bstards , scrum halfs, etc etc etc. Can't help but think that this whole issue actually does a genuine disservice to those who are being "genuinely" racially abused. Heard one comment recently which said it was only a short step from the Gipsy Boy comment (directed at a prop who is proud of his gypsy heritage) to the next Holocaust. As to the "its a crime if the intention is an "intent to upset" issue" - oh come on! Welcome to thought-crime England 2016......

Out of interest Andy, would you happen to be white, straight, male, cis-gendered, English-born and generally part of every societally powerful group that there is going?

Puja

I'm part of the socially disadvantaged group that is fat and old, so watch your language or I'll sue the pants off you:)

APR wrote:

Puja wrote:

APR wrote:

Oh dear! "Shitting on people that come from persecuted minority groups is pretty low and makes the sport look bad." "ungentlemanly conduct" perhaps, but surely not a hate crime in this particular instance? And if this logic applied, then most rugby games would generate to 2-a-side. For example...
Fat people are a "persecuted" minority, so exactly the same logic applies. Ginger people are a minority, so ditto. Ditto short people, tall people, English people in Wales and Scotland, referees, umpires, bstards , scrum halfs, etc etc etc. Can't help but think that this whole issue actually does a genuine disservice to those who are being "genuinely" racially abused. Heard one comment recently which said it was only a short step from the Gipsy Boy comment (directed at a prop who is proud of his gypsy heritage) to the next Holocaust. As to the "its a crime if the intention is an "intent to upset" issue" - oh come on! Welcome to thought-crime England 2016......

Out of interest Andy, would you happen to be white, straight, male, cis-gendered, English-born and generally part of every societally powerful group that there is going?

Puja

I'm part of the socially disadvantaged group that is fat and old, so watch your language or I'll sue the pants off you:)

Ah, so a baby-boomer, as well as not being even slightly connected to any minority group. That explains those opinions. Sorry to bother you sir.

Puja

Load of bollocks about nothing.

The biggest offence still remains his hair do.

twitchy wrote:- Straw manning
- Reductio ad absurdum
- APR


I won't rise to your bait good sir and I suggest puja follows suit.

Ah, I see. Insults are the only option when unable to formulate a reasoned response, eh, twitchy? I understand.

Puja wrote:

APR wrote:

Puja wrote:
Out of interest Andy, would you happen to be white, straight, male, cis-gendered, English-born and generally part of every societally powerful group that there is going?

Puja

I'm part of the socially disadvantaged group that is fat and old, so watch your language or I'll sue the pants off you:)

Ah, so a baby-boomer, as well as not being even slightly connected to any minority group. That explains those opinions. Sorry to bother you sir.

Puja

That's all right Puja. I see you follow the twitchy logic. Education would be a wonderful thing for some.

So, now that we've dismissed the angry privileged ramblings, how about the France game? Has anyone who would've had Manu on the bench for the Wales game changed their mind for the France one? It's not as though he's had a huge amount of extra game time.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote:What is Marler getting banned for? Calling Samson Lee a pikey?

He could always claim he was referring to the famous stripper Gypsy Rose Lee. Perhaps Samson's figure reminded him of her ...

Mind you the forearm smash on Evans might be more difficult to explain.

Puja wrote:So, now that we've dismissed the angry privileged ramblings, how about the France game? Has anyone who would've had Manu on the bench for the Wales game changed their mind for the France one? It's not as though he's had a huge amount of extra game time.

Puja

Bench a 10, start him at 12.

Probably said roll on half time I could do with a Gypsy's kiss what about you Pikie old pal

Poor discipline was tolerated under the previous regime, and at various points in this championship we've had Cole, Itoje, Robshaw, Haskell and Farrell giving up too many needles pens. So, would you drop Marler ahead of any hearing to send any signal over what's tolerated?

Puja wrote:So, now that we've dismissed the angry privileged ramblings, how about the France game? Has anyone who would've had Manu on the bench for the Wales game changed their mind for the France one? It's not as though he's had a huge amount of extra game time.

Puja

Don't think so. That's part paranoia about his fitness, part concern about his ability to fit into the team patterns at this moment, and part concern that Jones would bench Ford to do so.

I wouldn't even mind that too much, as much as I think Farrell is incredibly limited. I don't know how much Ford can do with current 'circumstances.'

How has mullan been this season?

twitchy wrote:How has mullan been this season?

He's in pretty good nick really. He'll never be world class but is a lot better than he's often given credit for. He'll do a good job of called upon.

p/d wrote:Load of bollocks about nothing.

The biggest offence still remains his hair do.

Indeed.

Beasties wrote:

twitchy wrote:How has mullan been this season?

He's in pretty good nick really. He'll never be world class but is a lot better than he's often given credit for. He'll do a good job of called upon.

Think his scrimmaging is miles better than when he was first called up by England, and his loose play has always been good.

I think I've decided we have to bring Manu in at 12. I don't care if it's Youngs & Farrell or Care & Ford, beyond that.

To be honest, Macintyre is really pushing Mullan for his place at Wasps so could well replace him for the summer tour.

Swap the 9s for sure, but keep the rest of the starting backs and bench the same. The French have been incredibly disorganised, and the way to beat them will be with structure. So let's use the guys that have been training and using it the most the past 5 weeks, get ahead, and then unleash Manu with 20 to go.

Peej wrote:To be honest, Macintyre is really pushing Mullan for his place at Wasps so could well replace him for the summer tour.

Swap the 9s for sure, but keep the rest of the starting backs and bench the same. The French have been incredibly disorganised, and the way to beat them will be with structure. So let's use the guys that have been training and using it the most the past 5 weeks, get ahead, and then unleash Manu with 20 to go.

I think there's a lot of sense in that. I read a stat the other day which said that, on average, France have the most offloads and the most clean breaks, but have knocked the ball on once every 8 carries this 6N. So basically, keep solid, keep organised and we'll get the ball back every time. I'm not sure this is the match to send out the labrador puppy approach that Manu showed in his Wales cameo.

Puja

My impression - in keeping with forum rules, this is based on nothing other than what I think I might have seen through the bottom of my pint glass - was that Wales' started to find holes once Manu was on as he was over excited and too busy looking for a hit to hold the defensive shape. Keep him on the bench, keep the structure.

I R Geech wrote:My impression - in keeping with forum rules, this is based on nothing other than what I think I might have seen through the bottom of my pint glass - was that Wales' started to find holes once Manu was on as he was over excited and too busy looking for a hit to hold the defensive shape. Keep him on the bench, keep the structure.

I agree with this post and the two above it.

In hindsight, 80 mins for Leicester may have been a better way to spend his weekend.

I R Geech wrote:My impression - in keeping with forum rules, this is based on nothing other than what I think I might have seen through the bottom of my pint glass - was that Wales' started to find holes once Manu was on as he was over excited and too busy looking for a hit to hold the defensive shape. Keep him on the bench, keep the structure.

Agree. There has been a lot of praise for Manu and criticism of others but I also feel that I saw through the bottom of my pint glass that the defensive structure suffered when Manu came on and holes appeared in the centre channels.

How did Manu cause our defence to suffer? After he came on we (or I) could make the following observations of what happens in play, the bits adversely affecting England might not be ones we'd blame Tuilagu for

He was used as a decoy on attack
He won a penalty after making a pick play
Care makes a box kick too far to contest
Nowell misses some tackles
Farrell misses some tackles
Itoje gives up a penalty
Wales actually win a lineout (and such platform might have caused more problems had they not lost 1st phase ball) from which they win a penalty in the forwards
Wales win another lineout, England go offside, Wales win another pen
Cole gets a yellow card, but thanks to Francis England get a chance to clear
England win their lineout, drive a maul but are held, scrum turnover, all the forwards work
Just prior to the Faletau try Manu is perhaps drawn into contesting a ruck he'd do better backing off and staying in the line.
Another penalty conceded by the forwards after the restart
There's an overthrown lineout by Wales but the reclaim the ball
Manu tackles North into touch (sort of), England win the lineout and kick ball off to take the win.

There's plenty in that last 15 minutes or so, and the chargedown try, and in not scoring enough points in the 1st half to berate England for. Manu's defence just seems an odd place to start, unless the beer got to me more than usual.