RugbyRebels

At least he didn’t give Itoje 10/10

I hate the whole bollocks about Farrell getting the kicks that really matter. Unless your team has a commanding lead, every kick matters! Farrell doesn't have a crystal ball to tell him he can miss a few early on.

Raggs wrote:I hate the whole bollocks about Farrell getting the kicks that really matter. Unless your team has a commanding lead, every kick matters! Farrell doesn't have a crystal ball to tell him he can miss a few early on.

And especially that late one in front of the posts - that one definitely mattered! That was the difference between a 3 point lead and a 6 point one and, if George hadn't scored shortly afterwards, would've kept Exeter right in the game.

George Ford had an 84.4% kicking percentage this year, while Owen Farrell only had 78.6%. The iceman also missed 8 kicks in the semi and final, including a couple of ones from nigh bang in front. Yet Ford is too much of a risk for England.

Puja

Yep. It’s ridiculous, but we should all know, Farrell can do no wrong. His prescient ability to know which kicks he can miss is world class.

Interesting watching the game this morning as missed it yesterday. From the comments I was expecting a spectacular from Nowell....who made three or four very Nowell-esque runs, bit of escapology but nothing game breaking and dying with it as normal, nice footwork and determination, but that's what he always does; he is worth a look at 15, though his positioning need work obviously. I was expecting Itoje to have some hideous penalty fest, but he copped a yellow for the team give aways, one very daft one early in the second half and one for not rolling away when he looked a bit trapped; he was more a 'liability' for flying out of the line and missing a tackle three times, but that was the role he was obviously given. That said not motm.

Faz looked much better than recently in that he was coming onto the ball and distributing a bit better, plus good kicking out of hand; it is laughable though when the pundits discuss his goal kicking, which is only average to good for this level- and the penalty from in front of the posts near the end could have been a vital miss, but he got bailed out by Chiefs lineout malfunction. Definitely not 9/10. George had an excellent game, but like a few Sarries, missed more tackles tha normal. Not sure why Sarries don't use Itoje on restarts, he is more athletic than Kruis who doesn't adjust in the air as well..

Two interesting commentary things- very impressed with Baxter chatting in the middle of the game, and a really duff bit of analysis from Healey talking about Kvesic not packing down at 8 'to counter the threat of Vunipola'.....ignoring the fact that Slade was off at that point, and they were defending in their 22....Kvesic was covering the 10 channel and they all shuffled out one to cover for Slade, rather than negating Billy's pick up.

Great game.

Banquo wrote:Interesting watching the game this morning as missed it yesterday. From the comments I was expecting a spectacular from Nowell....who made three or four very Nowell-esque runs, bit of escapology but nothing game breaking and dying with it as normal, nice footwork and determination, but that's what he always does; he is worth a look at 15, though his positioning need work obviously. I was expecting Itoje to have some hideous penalty fest, but he copped a yellow for the team give aways, one very daft one early in the second half and one for not rolling away when he looked a bit trapped; he was more a 'liability' for flying out of the line and missing a tackle three times, but that was the role he was obviously given. That said not motm.

Faz looked much better than recently in that he was coming onto the ball and distributing a bit better, plus good kicking out of hand; it is laughable though when the pundits discuss his goal kicking, which is only average to good for this level- and the penalty from in front of the posts near the end could have been a vital miss, but he got bailed out by Chiefs lineout malfunction. Definitely not 9/10. George had an excellent game, but like a few Sarries, missed more tackles tha normal. Not sure why Sarries don't use Itoje on restarts, he is more athletic than Kruis who doesn't adjust in the air as well..

Two interesting commentary things- very impressed with Baxter chatting in the middle of the game, and a really duff bit of analysis from Healey talking about Kvesic not packing down at 8 'to counter the threat of Vunipola'.....ignoring the fact that Slade was off at that point, and they were defending in their 22....Kvesic was covering the 10 channel and they all shuffled out one to cover for Slade, rather than negating Billy's pick up.

Great game.

Banquo, do you rate Sanderson? He seems to me to talk sense and I wonder the extent to which he is the power behind the throne.

Talking of England squad players messing things up at crucial times, is LCD not one of the worst? The commentary described the lineout cock-up as a simple over-throw and that's how it looked to me. Had Yeandle still been on the pitch, might Exeter have won?

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:Interesting watching the game this morning as missed it yesterday. From the comments I was expecting a spectacular from Nowell....who made three or four very Nowell-esque runs, bit of escapology but nothing game breaking and dying with it as normal, nice footwork and determination, but that's what he always does; he is worth a look at 15, though his positioning need work obviously. I was expecting Itoje to have some hideous penalty fest, but he copped a yellow for the team give aways, one very daft one early in the second half and one for not rolling away when he looked a bit trapped; he was more a 'liability' for flying out of the line and missing a tackle three times, but that was the role he was obviously given. That said not motm.

Faz looked much better than recently in that he was coming onto the ball and distributing a bit better, plus good kicking out of hand; it is laughable though when the pundits discuss his goal kicking, which is only average to good for this level- and the penalty from in front of the posts near the end could have been a vital miss, but he got bailed out by Chiefs lineout malfunction. Definitely not 9/10. George had an excellent game, but like a few Sarries, missed more tackles tha normal. Not sure why Sarries don't use Itoje on restarts, he is more athletic than Kruis who doesn't adjust in the air as well..

Two interesting commentary things- very impressed with Baxter chatting in the middle of the game, and a really duff bit of analysis from Healey talking about Kvesic not packing down at 8 'to counter the threat of Vunipola'.....ignoring the fact that Slade was off at that point, and they were defending in their 22....Kvesic was covering the 10 channel and they all shuffled out one to cover for Slade, rather than negating Billy's pick up.

Great game.

Banquo, do you rate Sanderson? He seems to me to talk sense and I wonder the extent to which he is the power behind the throne.

Talking of England squad players messing things up at crucial times, is LCD not one of the worst? The commentary described the lineout cock-up as a simple over-throw and that's how it looked to me. Had Yeandle still been on the pitch, might Exeter have won?

Yes, like Baxter he seems to understand the importance of the bits and pieces of coaching; but the Sarries power is definitely McCall.

Not sure it was a simple overthrow tbh, looked like timing too, but only watched it once. Exeter 'might' have won, but they were 5 yards from their own line at that point and losing, so its a bit of a leap to pin it on LCD.....but can see why Yeandle starts, for all LCD is excellent in the loose.

I'm going with Wray as the Sarries power, and all those houses they're buying that definitely aren't payment in kind. Yes it still needs to come together, but it's much easier when starting with more good players than the other sides

Digby wrote:I'm going with Wray as the Sarries power, and all those houses they're buying that definitely aren't payment in kind. Yes it still needs to come together, but it's much easier when starting with more good players than the other sides

Good old diggers. Snowball addiction pays dividends. I'd also point out that McCall didn't necessarily start out with more good players than anyone else.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:I'm going with Wray as the Sarries power, and all those houses they're buying that definitely aren't payment in kind. Yes it still needs to come together, but it's much easier when starting with more good players than the other sides

Good old diggers. Snowball addiction pays dividends.

I did drink a lot yesterday, still hungover now. Actually I've just opened a beer to try and manage the situation, no need to be a hero about this

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:I'm going with Wray as the Sarries power, and all those houses they're buying that definitely aren't payment in kind. Yes it still needs to come together, but it's much easier when starting with more good players than the other sides

Good old diggers. Snowball addiction pays dividends.

I did drink a lot yesterday, still hungover now. Actually I've just opened a beer to try and manage the situation, no need to be a hero about this

also, rather than sneering at Wray, he has kept the faith for an awful long time now.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: Good old diggers. Snowball addiction pays dividends.

I did drink a lot yesterday, still hungover now. Actually I've just opened a beer to try and manage the situation, no need to be a hero about this

also, rather than sneering at Wray, he has kept the faith for an awful long time now.

Judging people harshly is my default, myself included, even if I'm an easy target. And I do credit him with love of his club and support for the game, but they do cheat rather blatantly so a mix of admiration and admonishment doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
I did drink a lot yesterday, still hungover now. Actually I've just opened a beer to try and manage the situation, no need to be a hero about this

also, rather than sneering at Wray, he has kept the faith for an awful long time now.

Judging people harshly is my default, myself included, even if I'm an easy target. And I do credit him with love of his club and support for the game, but they do cheat rather blatantly so a mix of admiration and admonishment doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Admonishment should go to those allowing it, if admonishment is needed.Other clubs and fans just seem plain jealous that their sugar daddies haven't stuck with it or had deeper pockets. Sarries have shown what you 'need' to get to the top of the club game in Europe, fair means or foul, within the English system....

Exeter’s lineout has been an issue since Parling left imo. I’d argue it’s their biggest area of weakness. LCD may be part of the problem, it’s hard to say looking from the outside, but they are no better when Yeandle is on the field- see the semifinal while Yeandle was playing for eg.

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote: also, rather than sneering at Wray, he has kept the faith for an awful long time now.

Judging people harshly is my default, myself included, even if I'm an easy target. And I do credit him with love of his club and support for the game, but they do cheat rather blatantly so a mix of admiration and admonishment doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Admonishment should go to those allowing it, if admonishment is needed.Other clubs and fans just seem plain jealous that their sugar daddies haven't stuck with it or had deeper pockets. Sarries have shown what you 'need' to get to the top of the club game in Europe, fair means or foul, within the English system....

I'd say it's more frustration than jealously. It's frustrating knowing that for most clubs in the Premiership it's an uphill struggle and not an even playing field to compete with Saracens. They may not have started out with more high quality players, but being able to circumnavigate the cap and pay them by other means has resulted in the current squad having more high quality, and quality in depth, than others. There wouldn't be the level of resentment towards Exeter, if in a few seasons time they are doing the double, as they are a self supported proper rugby club.

Adam_P wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Judging people harshly is my default, myself included, even if I'm an easy target. And I do credit him with love of his club and support for the game, but they do cheat rather blatantly so a mix of admiration and admonishment doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Admonishment should go to those allowing it, if admonishment is needed.Other clubs and fans just seem plain jealous that their sugar daddies haven't stuck with it or had deeper pockets. Sarries have shown what you 'need' to get to the top of the club game in Europe, fair means or foul, within the English system....

I'd say it's more frustration than jealously. It's frustrating knowing that for most clubs in the Premiership it's an uphill struggle and not an even playing field to compete with Saracens. They may not have started out with more high quality players, but being able to circumnavigate the cap and pay them by other means has resulted in the current squad having more high quality, and quality in depth, than others. There wouldn't be the level of resentment towards Exeter, if in a few seasons time they are doing the double, as they are a self supported proper rugby club.

Along this line of thinking I'd be jealous of every club in the top flight. Really every top team spends highly on wages, and anyone attaining success consistently is right at the top

Adam_P wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Judging people harshly is my default, myself included, even if I'm an easy target. And I do credit him with love of his club and support for the game, but they do cheat rather blatantly so a mix of admiration and admonishment doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Admonishment should go to those allowing it, if admonishment is needed.Other clubs and fans just seem plain jealous that their sugar daddies haven't stuck with it or had deeper pockets. Sarries have shown what you 'need' to get to the top of the club game in Europe, fair means or foul, within the English system....

I'd say it's more frustration than jealously. It's frustrating knowing that for most clubs in the Premiership it's an uphill struggle and not an even playing field to compete with Saracens. They may not have started out with more high quality players, but being able to circumnavigate the cap and pay them by other means has resulted in the current squad having more high quality, and quality in depth, than others. There wouldn't be the level of resentment towards Exeter, if in a few seasons time they are doing the double, as they are a self supported proper rugby club.

Exeter just happen to be in a part of the country where their sugar daddy can afford to buy a stadium and ancillary facilities that provide a nice income. He’s also able/happy to stick his company’s name on the front of their shirt, no doubt for a tidy sum. They also happen to be the only game in town when enticing paying punters to sporting events. Sarries’ competitors played in an FA Cup final, Europa Cup final and Champions League final this season.
I’m not necessarily defending Sarries, even if I think rugby would be in a better place if all clubs looked after their players and their families and their respective futures as well as them, but comparing Exeter’s and Sarries’ ability to build a stable business model is comparing apples and oranges.

Adam_P wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:
Judging people harshly is my default, myself included, even if I'm an easy target. And I do credit him with love of his club and support for the game, but they do cheat rather blatantly so a mix of admiration and admonishment doesn't seem unreasonable to me

Admonishment should go to those allowing it, if admonishment is needed.Other clubs and fans just seem plain jealous that their sugar daddies haven't stuck with it or had deeper pockets. Sarries have shown what you 'need' to get to the top of the club game in Europe, fair means or foul, within the English system....

I'd say it's more frustration than jealously. It's frustrating knowing that for most clubs in the Premiership it's an uphill struggle and not an even playing field to compete with Saracens. They may not have started out with more high quality players, but being able to circumnavigate the cap and pay them by other means has resulted in the current squad having more high quality, and quality in depth, than others. There wouldn't be the level of resentment towards Exeter, if in a few seasons time they are doing the double, as they are a self supported proper rugby club.

Why do you say Sarries aren't a proper rugby club, and what do you mean by self supported? You are a Saints fan, no?

Is there an example of a successful/dominant club people aren't resentful toward?

Banquo wrote:

Adam_P wrote:

Banquo wrote: Admonishment should go to those allowing it, if admonishment is needed.Other clubs and fans just seem plain jealous that their sugar daddies haven't stuck with it or had deeper pockets. Sarries have shown what you 'need' to get to the top of the club game in Europe, fair means or foul, within the English system....

I'd say it's more frustration than jealously. It's frustrating knowing that for most clubs in the Premiership it's an uphill struggle and not an even playing field to compete with Saracens. They may not have started out with more high quality players, but being able to circumnavigate the cap and pay them by other means has resulted in the current squad having more high quality, and quality in depth, than others. There wouldn't be the level of resentment towards Exeter, if in a few seasons time they are doing the double, as they are a self supported proper rugby club.

Why do you say Sarries aren't a proper rugby club, and what do you mean by self supported? You are a Saints fan, no?

Are you trying to imply that Saints had their own sugar daddy to pay for numerous high profile players and to get the stadium and infrastructure they have today?

How many millions of debt are written off by Wray every year vs other Prem clubs?

Apparently Kitson was saying that there's a player that Sarries are still contributing to a players property costs 7 years after he retired. I wonder if there's special circumstances (injury etc), but that doesn't exactly sound fair.

There again, whilst not breaking the cap, I do wonder just how much Tony Rowe invests every year into Exeter via South West Comms. Seems more like a tax friendly way to fund a rugby club rather than straight out of his pocket.

Adam_P wrote:How many millions of debt are written off by Wray every year vs other Prem clubs?

They are all at it, its just degrees. And if Saints were being bankrolled to the same degree, you wouldn't complain. This is the latest I can find; bear in mind that Wray has been bankrolling them since 95 iirc.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/ ... nd-verdict

If Saints had the same success based off the same model as Saracens I certainly wouldn't complain. I would however understand why we would be almost unanimously the least liked club amongst other supporters. And it wouldn't be purely based on jealousy of the success of the rugby, it would be about the means used to get there

Basically the salary cap is a joke as it stands. Premiership Rugby either need to scrap it, or (preferably) dish out sanctions to those not following it. And those sanctions should come in the form of league points, not a fine that the owner wont even notice coming out of the bank.