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Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:31 pm
by Lizard
1 American
1 Aussie
2 Kiwis
1 Fijian
1 Samoan
Pretty restrained on the poaching front this time.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:33 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote:LHP: Mako Vunipola, Joe Marler, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Dan Cole, Kyle Sinckler
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Lewis Ludlam
#8: Billy Vunipola, Mark Wilson
SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Manu Tuilagi, Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell, Ruaridh McConnochie
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson
I'd happily sacrifice Francis and one of Nowell/McConnochie in order to have the correct number of THPs and SHs
This. Its not entirely beyond the realms of possibility that one of the ancient 9's pulls a calf in the warm up, and Ford is therefore back up 9. Then the starting 9 is going to get a serious doing over from the oppos.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:36 pm
by jngf
Warrior85 wrote:
Are we only taking 1 number 8 and 1 recognised 6?
Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.
Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a back up 8 to Billy mind you)
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:36 pm
by Which Tyler
Possibility that Nowell is expected not to be fit in time, to be replaced by Spencer, but is too good to leave out if he does make it?
So "would rather have Jack AND Ruaridh, with 2 SHs; but if either can't make it, would rather 3rd SH than Ashton/Solomona"
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:36 pm
by fivepointer
5 props and 6 back 3 players doesnt seem quite right to me. 2 TH's in such a physically demanding position is definitely a risk. Williams is unlucky.
Very pleased for Ludlam, who has come through and earned the spot. I'm not sorry that Shields doesnt make it.
Elsewhere its pretty much as expected. I did think Francis would make it once Te'o was omitted. In the same way Heinz was nailed on when he got the nod over Spencer.
2 SH's is another risk, but a 31 player squad does mean you have to cut a corner here and there.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:37 pm
by Freddo
No Shields so I suppose that will make a few people happy. Unless Francis can play SH I just don't see the point in taking him. Would have preferred another TH or SH. Harry Williams can only blame himself for not being picked though as I think he has been given quite a few opportunities to replace Cole as the understudy to Sinckler.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:40 pm
by jngf
Freddo wrote:. Harry Williams can only blame himself for not being picked though as I think he has been given quite a few opportunities to replace Cole as the understudy to Sinckler.
Maybe Jones just prefers Baldies
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:41 pm
by Digby
The planning around boarding the plane has seemingly been arranged by Chris Grayling, and he only diverted any attention to it after ensuring he'd gotten all his other tasks correctly lined up
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:41 pm
by Mellsblue
Banquo wrote:someone has said elsewhere that Marler can play tighthead......never seen it, so no idea...
I think that was said in vein as Watson doesn’t play 15 for Bath.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:43 pm
by Banquo
jngf wrote:Warrior85 wrote:
Are we only taking 1 number 8 and 1 recognised 6?
Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.
Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the
mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a
back up 8 to Billy mind you)
So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....
In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:44 pm
by Digby
Banquo wrote:Which Tyler wrote:LHP: Mako Vunipola, Joe Marler, Ellis Genge
HK: Jamie George, Luke Cowan-Dickie, Jack Singleton
THP: Dan Cole, Kyle Sinckler
LK: Maro Itoje, George Kruis, Courtney Lawes, Joe Launchbury
FL: Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Lewis Ludlam
#8: Billy Vunipola, Mark Wilson
SH: Ben Youngs, Willi Heinz
FH: Owen Farrell, George Ford
CE: Manu Tuilagi, Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Piers Francis
WG: Jonny May, Joe Cokanasiga, Jack Nowell, Ruaridh McConnochie
FB: Elliot Daly, Anthony Watson
I'd happily sacrifice Francis and one of Nowell/McConnochie in order to have the correct number of THPs and SHs
This. Its not entirely beyond the realms of possibility that one of the ancient 9's pulls a calf in the warm up, and Ford is therefore back up 9. Then the starting 9 is going to get a serious doing over from the oppos.
Yep. Bang went my theory if nobody stepped up he'd taken Wiggle as a proven something.
Still in many ways what an ideal scenario for Youngs, he only needs to suggest a sore calf and he'll be let off training
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:46 pm
by Mellsblue
Banquo wrote:jngf wrote:Warrior85 wrote:
Are we only taking 1 number 8 and 1 recognised 6?
Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.
Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the
mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a
back up 8 to Billy mind you)
So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....
In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?
Come on now. You can’t argue with the logic that blindside flanker and sometimes 8 for both club and country Mark Wilson is a worse understudy to Billy than Itoje.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:47 pm
by Banquo
Mellsblue wrote:Banquo wrote:someone has said elsewhere that Marler can play tighthead......never seen it, so no idea...
I think that was said in vein as Watson doesn’t play 15 for Bath.
Nope, journo mate
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:50 pm
by Renniks
Unused XV:
1. Moon
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Isiekwe
5. Ewels
6. Shields / Dombrandt
7. Robshaw / B.Curry
8. Hughes
9. Spencer / Care
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Te'o
13. Marchant
14. Ashton / Thorley
15. Brown
Some big big decisions made there!
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:51 pm
by Danno
Banquo wrote:jngf wrote:Warrior85 wrote:
Are we only taking 1 number 8 and 1 recognised 6?
Agree we’re short on cover at 8 ( still not convinced about Wilson being our principle 8 if Billy got injured) - however I think Ludlum, Curry and Underhill are pretty interchangable between 6 and 7. Plus , based on his performance on Sunday Lawes could play 6 against any rival team who plays a lock there e.g. Boks playing Piet Steph du Toit or France playing Arthur
Arturia.
Really don’t want to see Itoje in the 6 shirt again he simply doesn’t have the
mobility for flanker IMO ( wouldn’t mind him tried as a
back up 8 to Billy mind you)
So his lack of mobility (?) would be offset by what....his deft handling, his control at the base of the scrum.....
In what respect do you think he would make a decent 8?
Don't encourage him
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:53 pm
by Which Tyler
Renniks wrote:Unused XV:
I'd have taken Hartley, Williams and Spencer/Care - but otherwise, I think he's got those exclusions dead right. Of those 3, one is injured, and 2 are more about balance and covering "what-if"s than because they're necessarily better.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:54 pm
by Freddo
So who will be the first XV when everyone is fit?
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:57 pm
by Renniks
Which Tyler wrote:Renniks wrote:Unused XV:
I'd have taken Hartley, Williams and Spencer/Care - but otherwise, I think he's got those exclusions dead right. Of those 3, one is injured, and 2 are more about balance and covering "what-if"s than because they're necessarily better.
Oh for sure - the changes I'd make align to yours (with Cips being included somehow too)
I agree with the general exclusions - though think that the prep for this world cup has been bonkers - nearly all those 15 have been involved heavily in the past few years - and are now dropped when it's crunch time.
It also really shows our depth if there are injuries
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:58 pm
by Banquo
Renniks wrote:Unused XV:
1. Moon
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Isiekwe
5. Ewels
6. Shields / Dombrandt
7. Robshaw / B.Curry
8. Hughes
9. Spencer / Care
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Te'o
13. Marchant
14. Ashton / Thorley
15. Brown
Some big big decisions made there!
Not necessarily wrong ones- nearly all of those named have been the target of a lot of flak in the past. None could really say.....I've been hard done by except at 9 imo.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm
by Renniks
Freddo wrote:So who will be the first XV when everyone is fit?
I'd assume:
Vunipola, George, Sinckler
Itoje, Kruis
Wilson, Curry, Vunipola
Youngs, Farrell,
May, Tuilagi, Slade, Nowell, Daly
Though, I'd have Ford, Joseph, Watson instead
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:02 pm
by Banquo
Freddo wrote:So who will be the first XV when everyone is fit?
Mako, George, Sinckler, Kruis, Itoje, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Ford, Daly, Manu, JJ, May, Watson for me.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:02 pm
by Renniks
Banquo wrote:Renniks wrote:Unused XV:
1. Moon
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Isiekwe
5. Ewels
6. Shields / Dombrandt
7. Robshaw / B.Curry
8. Hughes
9. Spencer / Care
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Te'o
13. Marchant
14. Ashton / Thorley
15. Brown
Some big big decisions made there!
Not necessarily wrong ones- nearly all of those named have been the target of a lot of flak in the past. None could really say.....I've been hard done by except at 9 imo.
I think lots will feel hard-done by, but I agree with pretty much all the choices
(Moon can feel disgruntled that Marler did a U-Turn)
Ewels missing the cut is just a testament to our depth in that position!
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:08 pm
by Banquo
Renniks wrote:Banquo wrote:Renniks wrote:Unused XV:
1. Moon
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Isiekwe
5. Ewels
6. Shields / Dombrandt
7. Robshaw / B.Curry
8. Hughes
9. Spencer / Care
10. Cipriani
11. Solomona
12. Te'o
13. Marchant
14. Ashton / Thorley
15. Brown
Some big big decisions made there!
Not necessarily wrong ones- nearly all of those named have been the target of a lot of flak in the past. None could really say.....I've been hard done by except at 9 imo.
I think lots will feel hard-done by, but I agree with pretty much all the choices
(Moon can feel disgruntled that Marler did a U-Turn)
Ewels missing the cut is just a testament to our depth in that position!
Moon got his chance through injuries in the first place so not sure he can feel hard done by. Ewels is in an especially strong position as you say. Cips may be disgruntled, but can't be surprised. I can't really see who else will feel hard done by...Hughes, possibly.
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:09 pm
by Digby
Freddo wrote:So who will be the first XV when everyone is fit?
For me
Mako
George
Sinckler
Launchbury
Itoje
Wilson
Curry
Billy
Youngs
Ford
May
Manu
Joseph
Cokanasiga
Daly
I haven't yet worked out how to get Watson and Kruis into the side, both warrant inclusion, though it is nice to have too many options
Re: On and Off the Plane
Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:14 pm
by Renniks
Banquo wrote:
Moon got his chance through injuries in the first place so not sure he can feel hard done by. Ewels is in an especially strong position as you say. Cips may be disgruntled, but can't be surprised. I can't really see who else will feel hard done by...Hughes, possibly.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't agree with them, but…
All of Hartley, Shields, Robshaw, Hughes, Care, and Brown were part of the building of the team over the past 4 years, now surplus to requirements
And I'd posit that none of them are playing worse lately than they did when they were first selected by EJ
Injuries at the wrong times meant that a lot of them dropped out of favour
and I do think the choices instead of them are improvements (generally) - but still could understand them feeling hard done by… justified or not haha