Jones

[Tigersman]

I highly doubt anything could change your mind.
Even if we had won the RWC, I would bet on a thread saying but can we expect Jones to take us to defend the title?
Most experts say that Jones doesn't work long term and that he will rub the coaches and players the wrong way.
Should we make the change of coach now whilst we still have momentum?

SA playing like that would've pushed a in form AB team playing at their best, like SA has pushed them before previously.


In 4 years we went from the biggest embarrassment in the RWC history failing to get out the pool stage of our own RWC to the RWC final.
No other team in the history of the RWC has gone done such a jump before.

How is that not a leap forward?


We all know "Now, I accept that a glorious 27-30 defeat might have me assessing the whole thing differently to an extent" this isn't true.

[Mikey Brown]

Monye said something the other day that, I think, no side has ever won their next game after managing to beat the All Blacks in a World Cup.

No idea how many occasions that actually amounts to though.

[Puja]

Monye said something the other day that, I think, no side has ever won their next game after managing to beat the All Blacks in a World Cup.

No idea how many occasions that actually amounts to though.

Not that we need evidence of this, but Monye doesn't know what he's talking about: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Rugby_World_Cup

Also, that's the kind of bullshit statistic that comes from having a tournament with only 9 iterations and thus limited data. The ABs have had 6 losses, of which only 5 gave the victor a chance to play another match. 1 was won, 4 were lost, but it's also worth taking to account that 2 of those were by French teams that defined mercurial and the other two led to final defeats against very good teams (2003 and 2019). So, lies, damned lies, and statistics

Puja

[jngf]

One question that springs to mind having reached a second World Cup final as a team manager/head coach and lost at the final step, how hungry would Jones be to try and do it all over again for a third time or would it be a case of unfinished business that keeps the motivation going?

[morepork]

If you pay them, they will come.

[Oakboy]

The more important question is whether he has got what it takes to win it. World rugby will not stand still. We had the players to win it this time but will we have the players next time, if the standard has moved on 10% or whatever?

I still find it most concerning that he has stated that he does not know what went wrong. At the very least, we need a guy in charge who can convince the players that he WILL know what it takes next time.

[p/d]

Probably been posted somewhere on one of the numerous threads relating to the final, but watched a video on you tube titled 'So how did SA win the wc final?' ............. thought it a good analysis

[Tigersman]

I mean Eddie does know what it takes to win the RWC.
Considering he was assistant coach for the 2007 RWC SA win.

Standard of rugby may move on by 10% but this is still a young England squad mostly I don't see why it shouldn't move on with it.

[Scrumhead]

The more important question is whether he has got what it takes to win it. World rugby will not stand still. We had the players to win it this time but will we have the players next time, if the standard has moved on 10% or whatever?

I still find it most concerning that he has stated that he does not know what went wrong. At the very least, we need a guy in charge who can convince the players that he WILL know what it takes next time.

Like Baxter and Sanderson you mean? They MUST know!

[Timbo]

There’s very little about Eddie Jones that makes me think he’s going to ‘stand still’ or not push standards.

He’s coached teams to 2 World Cup finals 16 years apart, proving that he can adapt to the way the game progresses.

[morepork]

I hope you regress to the point where all your outside backs step like Chris Robshaw, all your coaches revert to shell suits, and you sprout gills, like an axolotl.

[CunningPunter]

I hope you regress to the point where all your outside backs step like Chris Robshaw, all your coaches revert to shell suits, and you sprout gills, like an axolotl.

That makes me axolotl questions about your sanity.

[morepork]

At least you would be able to regenerate after being dismembered in the final.

[Oakboy]

The more important question is whether he has got what it takes to win it. World rugby will not stand still. We had the players to win it this time but will we have the players next time, if the standard has moved on 10% or whatever?

I still find it most concerning that he has stated that he does not know what went wrong. At the very least, we need a guy in charge who can convince the players that he WILL know what it takes next time.

Like Baxter and Sanderson you mean? They MUST know!

OK, we'll just go on for another four years of inconsistency before freezing in another final. Why not? It should be fun.

If you care to look at the original post, I said it was impossible for a fan to know who to appoint but that I'd happily lead the panel. I happen to like the character of Baxter and Sanderson.

Who would you appoint if we were starting today? Would it really be Jones after the last four years?

[Scrumhead]

At the moment, yes. Mostly because there is no clear contender that I can say is demonstrably better.

Vern Cotter interests me. He’s a bit of an odd fish, but there’s no doubt he’s an excellent coach and his teams generally play effective, attack orientated rugby.

I like Baxter, but I can’t say I enjoy watching Exeter play and he’s yet to show he can be successful outside of the Premiership.

I’m less enamoured with Sanderson. I find him irritating and with Sarries it’s always hard to tell who actually does what. My impression is that McCall runs the side and manages a coaching team in a similar way to an international Head Coach/DoR. I think McCall would be a very good fit for England but he’s said he has no interest in test rugby.

[p/d]

To be fair I don't think Baxter or Sanderson could carry off powder blue quite so effortlessly as Eddie

[Oakboy]

At the moment, yes. Mostly because there is no clear contender that I can say is demonstrably better.

Vern Cotter interests me. He’s a bit of an odd fish, but there’s no doubt he’s an excellent coach and his teams generally play effective, attack orientated rugby.

I like Baxter, but I can’t say I enjoy watching Exeter play and he’s yet to show he can be successful outside of the Premiership.

I’m less enamoured with Sanderson. I find him irritating and with Sarries it’s always hard to tell who actually does what. My impression is that McCall runs the side and manages a coaching team in a similar way to an international Head Coach/DoR. I think McCall would be a very good fit for England but he’s said he has no interest in test rugby.

All fair comment. I would like to hear from the RFU exactly what is laid down as the operating target for Jones in the next two years, assuming that he stays at the helm.

His two major innovations are Daly at FB and two opensides in the back row. Apart from that, he has just ridden the wave of club development as a group of players of international standard arose. All of Mako, George, Itoje, Billy, Ford, Farrell, Watson, May were on the scene already. Maybe, he can have credit for doing something extra with Sinckler.

Basically, he has managed a useful group but how do we (or the RFU) measure it? Has he succeded with those players or failed with the usual 9/10/12 situation?

I have been saying for about three years that Jones wins or he is nothing. Some applaud his record of wins over defeats. Unfortunately, though, IMO, the overall number statistics do not present the full picture. I don't think he has won enough of the crunch games. One absolute target, had I been setting, would have been a GS in the 6N preceding the RWC. Losing any 6N games at that stage represented a failure to achieve a consistent build-up improvement in the 4-year cycle. That highlighted the eventual disparity of performance between SF and Final.

I just hope that keeping him works but I reserve the right to be sceptical.

[jngf]

I think my preference would be for a manager who was a back in their playing days rather than a forward as (sweeping generalisation perhaps) they tend to be a bit more innovative in developing the skills of the individuals and the team as a whole and have more of a taste for winning by means other than than one dimensional ball wrecking relying heavily on Tuillagi and the Vunipula brothers being fit and on form and captain whose biggest strength is kicking penalties and who appears totally lost when the side fails to grab the lead in the first quarter of play!

[Digby]

I'm not sure that's remotely true about how forwards and backs break down in their approach to coaching a side on the tactical front.

The most attack based approach at this WC came from Jamie Joseph, he'd be followed by the likes of Hansen and Cheika. The worst approaches vis a vis attack came from Erasmus, Ledesma, Gatland and Schmidt. And there's only on back in those mentioned showing the forwards are quite capable of ending in either camp.

Actually the most attack based approach (bar his selection at 9) probably came from Townsend, but that was more mental rather than anything useful

Additionally I don't know I've ever watched sides coached by Brunel or going back PSA and thought wow, that's an interesting approach on attack.

[Scrumhead]

At the moment, yes. Mostly because there is no clear contender that I can say is demonstrably better.

Vern Cotter interests me. He’s a bit of an odd fish, but there’s no doubt he’s an excellent coach and his teams generally play effective, attack orientated rugby.

I like Baxter, but I can’t say I enjoy watching Exeter play and he’s yet to show he can be successful outside of the Premiership.

I’m less enamoured with Sanderson. I find him irritating and with Sarries it’s always hard to tell who actually does what. My impression is that McCall runs the side and manages a coaching team in a similar way to an international Head Coach/DoR. I think McCall would be a very good fit for England but he’s said he has no interest in test rugby.

All fair comment. I would like to hear from the RFU exactly what is laid down as the operating target for Jones in the next two years, assuming that he stays at the helm.

His two major innovations are Daly at FB and two opensides in the back row. Apart from that, he has just ridden the wave of club development as a group of players of international standard arose. All of Mako, George, Itoje, Billy, Ford, Farrell, Watson, May were on the scene already. Maybe, he can have credit for doing something extra with Sinckler.

Basically, he has managed a useful group but how do we (or the RFU) measure it? Has he succeded with those players or failed with the usual 9/10/12 situation?

I have been saying for about three years that Jones wins or he is nothing. Some applaud his record of wins over defeats. Unfortunately, though, IMO, the overall number statistics do not present the full picture. I don't think he has won enough of the crunch games. One absolute target, had I been setting, would have been a GS in the 6N preceding the RWC. Losing any 6N games at that stage represented a failure to achieve a consistent build-up improvement in the 4-year cycle. That highlighted the eventual disparity of performance between SF and Final.

I just hope that keeping him works but I reserve the right to be sceptical.

Re. the bolded section, I can’t understand why you’re seemingly criticising him for using the quality of resources at his disposal? Surely that would have benefitted anyone coaching England?

Re. the ‘innovations’ you mentioned, a lot of people (me included) wanted to see Daly tried at 15 as he looked like he had the right skill set for the role. I’ glad he tried it, but it didn’t work and I think it’s absolutely fair to say that Eddie persevered with Daly for too long even when it was obvious that it was a failed experiment. I really hope we see a change for the 6 Nations (ideally Watson). If not, I’ll join you in admonishing him for failing to address an obvious weakness. The same goes for the situation at 9.

For all we know, he may have wanted to try the dual opensides before, but Underhill and Curry were rarely available at the same time.

With the targets, I’m 100% with you. We need clear deliverables for Eddie and I think that needs to include a GS for 2020 or 2021. With the amount of upheaval across the coaching staff and players for most of the other 6N teams, we’re arguably the least disrupted and in the best position to capitalise.

[Mellsblue]

I suppose we should reserve judgement until the squad and first team sheet of the 6N is released.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm not sure that's remotely true about how forwards and backs break down in their approach to coaching a side on the tactical front.

The most attack based approach at this WC came from Jamie Joseph, he'd be followed by the likes of Hansen and Cheika. The worst approaches vis a vis attack came from Erasmus, Ledesma, Gatland and Schmidt. And there's only on back in those mentioned showing the forwards are quite capable of ending in either camp.

Actually the most attack based approach (bar his selection at 9) probably came from Townsend, but that was more mental rather than anything useful

Additionally I don't know I've ever watched sides coached by Brunel or going back PSA and thought wow, that's an interesting approach on attack.

We should appoint Simon Shaw as coach and then simply steamroller everyone in our path.

[Mikey Brown]

Whoops. Thought it was Jngf who had proposed that.

[Digby]

I'd also like to note I don't think Daly at 15 is a failed experiment, or at least I cannot recall having a 15 who didn't come with issues in their game, at least not from a list of

Webb
Hodgkinson
Hull
Callard
Perry
Hunter
Catt
Stimpson
Balshaw
Perry
Robinson
Foden
Armitage
Morgan
Brown
Goode
Daly

Okay in fairness Nick Beal was just fecking awesome, but you don't get that level of perfection as the norm. I was of course going to add MVG to the list, but wasn't sure some of you would be able to contain your excitement about being reminded of the greatness of MVG

[jngf]

I think England have gone as far as it can under Jones and to be fair he has exceeded my expectations of where we could get too (thought we’d make semis at best) however going forward I think we need a fresh approach and I really don’t see him being at the helm by the time next World Cup comes round. The only good thing about losing final is that at least they’ll be no excuse for the appalling, protracted hangover and decline of the Test side between RWC 2003 and the nadir of RWC 2015.