3 England back row changes?

[Banquo]

Out of interest why are people saying Itoje isn't a good carrier?

He’s too upright into contact for me, and punches a bit below his weight; there again, I think he is hitting better lines now. I’m surprised Raggs has him below Lawes tho.

I’d also rank George higher than 4- his carrying is patchy, but often is very good.

[Mikey Brown]

To be tier 1, you've got to be a powerful scary carrier in your own right. Sink doesn't tend to do that by himself, when he has one other option next to him, to spread the defense a little, then absolutely, it's why I've put him in 2 and not 1.

When I look at the pack for carrying, my primary focus is congesting that area around the ruck, and getting us a few meters forward, disrupting the wider defence. So the likes of Lawes/Earl, who can be very effective just a little bit wider out, get marked down a bit. Yes, being able to skip down the sideline, or sidestep when you've hit a great line and are clear, are brilliant, but it's not the bread and butter.

Hitting 2 guys and going forwards half a yard, popping a short pass, or pulling a short pass out the back, are all very important. Other skills on top of that (offloads, pace, step etc) are all very good, but for me the big manipulation still comes from those players that draw in multiple players simply to stop them.

And players who can get around defenders in ways other than smashing directly in to them still draw in defenders to stop them, that was sort of my point.

I suppose what I was getting at is that if I were to pick the ultimate monster pack to just trample all over their opposition, I don't think I'd simply pick all the players who make the most metres after hitting the tackle. Defences are so organised in their fringe defence that you need guys who can shift the point of attack. The fact Mako and Sinkler can do both is what makes them totally indispensable, even if Sinkler isn't a bulldozer himself.

I'm not really arguing the placement of players within the tier system, more that I don't think it's as simple as picking as many as possible to make the pack more effective going forward. Not to say that was your claim exactly.

[Raggs]

Meters made is a terrible measure for performance, especially when looking at players you want being able to make hard yards. One 50m break is going to be enough to dine out on for a few games, and still have a good record.

I think Lawes' carrying is more consistently effective than Itoje's, he has an ability to make a few yards at least. They both still look completely lost when they find some space though. It's close.

I felt a bit guilty with George at 4, he has good pace, and good hands, but I've tended to feel his best work comes from being on the end of someone else who's broken the line and offloaded, or out wide, where he's basically a back (and he's good enough to be).

That tier list is for what I want to see from my pack. Pace, sidestep, offload, passes etc are all bonuses, but in the end, being able to go forwards when facing a well organised and aggressive defence, is always going to be a premium rate attribute. It's not pretty rugby, but unless virtually all your carriers are also decent handlers, it'll be tough to get away from.

That said, the likes of Mako, George, Sink definitely gets you head in the right direction in terms of getting enough subtly that players that can burst into gaps and step backs, suddenly become more useful (such as Simmonds or Earl).

[Epaminondas Pules]

Out of interest why are people saying Itoje isn't a good carrier?

He’s too upright into contact for me, and punches a bit below his weight; there again, I think he is hitting better lines now. I’m surprised Raggs has him below Lawes tho.

I’d also rank George higher than 4- his carrying is patchy, but often is very good.

That said he averages more metres per carry than any other English lock and most of his international competition.

George is a decent carrier, but he's as likely to pass as carry whenever he gets the ball.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Meters made is a terrible measure for performance, especially when looking at players you want being able to make hard yards. One 50m break is going to be enough to dine out on for a few games, and still have a good record.

I think Lawes' carrying is more consistently effective than Itoje's, he has an ability to make a few yards at least. They both still look completely lost when they find some space though. It's close.

I felt a bit guilty with George at 4, he has good pace, and good hands, but I've tended to feel his best work comes from being on the end of someone else who's broken the line and offloaded, or out wide, where he's basically a back (and he's good enough to be).

That tier list is for what I want to see from my pack. Pace, sidestep, offload, passes etc are all bonuses, but in the end, being able to go forwards when facing a well organised and aggressive defence, is always going to be a premium rate attribute. It's not pretty rugby, but unless virtually all your carriers are also decent handlers, it'll be tough to get away from.

That said, the likes of Mako, George, Sink definitely gets you head in the right direction in terms of getting enough subtly that players that can burst into gaps and step backs, suddenly become more useful (such as Simmonds or Earl).

Itoje looks lost when he's in open field? Seriously? He tends to make good decisions when he breaks the line.

[Banquo]

Out of interest why are people saying Itoje isn't a good carrier?

He’s too upright into contact for me, and punches a bit below his weight; there again, I think he is hitting better lines now. I’m surprised Raggs has him below Lawes tho.

I’d also rank George higher than 4- his carrying is patchy, but often is very good.

That said he averages more metres per carry than any other English lock and most of his international competition.

George is a decent carrier, but he's as likely to pass as carry whenever he gets the ball.

Interesting- suspect that’s on the back of when he does break the defence he usually gets a long way. Measuring against our locks bears out that it isn’t an especial strength for our locks as a whole. How do you rate his carrying?

That George distributed as much as carries is a good thing imo- he is a good distributor.

[Banquo]

Meters made is a terrible measure for performance, especially when looking at players you want being able to make hard yards. One 50m break is going to be enough to dine out on for a few games, and still have a good record.

I think Lawes' carrying is more consistently effective than Itoje's, he has an ability to make a few yards at least. They both still look completely lost when they find some space though. It's close.

I felt a bit guilty with George at 4, he has good pace, and good hands, but I've tended to feel his best work comes from being on the end of someone else who's broken the line and offloaded, or out wide, where he's basically a back (and he's good enough to be).

That tier list is for what I want to see from my pack. Pace, sidestep, offload, passes etc are all bonuses, but in the end, being able to go forwards when facing a well organised and aggressive defence, is always going to be a premium rate attribute. It's not pretty rugby, but unless virtually all your carriers are also decent handlers, it'll be tough to get away from.

That said, the likes of Mako, George, Sink definitely gets you head in the right direction in terms of getting enough subtly that players that can burst into gaps and step backs, suddenly become more useful (such as Simmonds or Earl).

Think it’s a split decision on Lawes v Itoje carrying wise; think they both could do a lot better given their athleticism.

[Epaminondas Pules]

He’s too upright into contact for me, and punches a bit below his weight; there again, I think he is hitting better lines now. I’m surprised Raggs has him below Lawes tho.

I’d also rank George higher than 4- his carrying is patchy, but often is very good.

That said he averages more metres per carry than any other English lock and most of his international competition.

George is a decent carrier, but he's as likely to pass as carry whenever he gets the ball.

Interesting- suspect that’s on the back of when he does break the defence he usually gets a long way. Measuring against our locks bears out that it isn’t an especial strength for our locks as a whole. How do you rate his carrying?

That George distributed as much as carries is a good thing imo- he is a good distributor.

No doubt. Stats are always skewed somewhat by those clean breaks, though he does consistently seem to make yards and take good options, the majority of times. I like his carrying. He is upright a tad, but then most locks are somewhat, unless they crouch into contact, which Launchbury does more, though to little benefit that I can see. His lines, and acceleration onto the ball have improved, as has Lawes to be fair. He doesn't get knocked back very often and has that ability to thrust post contact to get himself forward.

In one sense I'm just pleased that we have carriers whose first thought isn't to bury themselves into the ground.

And totally with George, and LCD too, and then Sinckler and Mako. Front rows who can carry hard and also bring subtlety through their hands.

[Banquo]

That said he averages more metres per carry than any other English lock and most of his international competition.

George is a decent carrier, but he's as likely to pass as carry whenever he gets the ball.

Interesting- suspect that’s on the back of when he does break the defence he usually gets a long way. Measuring against our locks bears out that it isn’t an especial strength for our locks as a whole. How do you rate his carrying?

That George distributed as much as carries is a good thing imo- he is a good distributor.

No doubt. Stats are always skewed somewhat by those clean breaks, though he does consistently seem to make yards and take good options, the majority of times. I like his carrying. He is upright a tad, but then most locks are somewhat, unless they crouch into contact, which Launchbury does more, though to little benefit that I can see. His lines, and acceleration onto the ball have improved, as has Lawes to be fair. He doesn't get knocked back very often and has that ability to thrust post contact to get himself forward.

In one sense I'm just pleased that we have carriers whose first thought isn't to bury themselves into the ground.

And totally with George, and LCD too, and then Sinckler and Mako. Front rows who can carry hard and also bring subtlety through their hands.

Cool- I’m just in the could do better category for Itojes carrying, even if it is on an upwards curve already.

[Digby]

Meters made is a terrible measure for performance, especially when looking at players you want being able to make hard yards. One 50m break is going to be enough to dine out on for a few games, and still have a good record.

I think Lawes' carrying is more consistently effective than Itoje's, he has an ability to make a few yards at least. They both still look completely lost when they find some space though. It's close.

I felt a bit guilty with George at 4, he has good pace, and good hands, but I've tended to feel his best work comes from being on the end of someone else who's broken the line and offloaded, or out wide, where he's basically a back (and he's good enough to be).

That tier list is for what I want to see from my pack. Pace, sidestep, offload, passes etc are all bonuses, but in the end, being able to go forwards when facing a well organised and aggressive defence, is always going to be a premium rate attribute. It's not pretty rugby, but unless virtually all your carriers are also decent handlers, it'll be tough to get away from.

That said, the likes of Mako, George, Sink definitely gets you head in the right direction in terms of getting enough subtly that players that can burst into gaps and step backs, suddenly become more useful (such as Simmonds or Earl).

Sounds fair, though I do think in addition to George you're perhaps being a little harsh on Earl. That said Earl like LCD and Genge is yet to show he can get the job done at test level where in theory everyone can defend, I say in theory as I saw Stockdale play t'other day and clearly not all test players can defend.

Also I doff my cap to calling out Banquo with the (suggestion of an) idea that having decent handling across the pack is practical impossibility.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Interesting- suspect that’s on the back of when he does break the defence he usually gets a long way. Measuring against our locks bears out that it isn’t an especial strength for our locks as a whole. How do you rate his carrying?

That George distributed as much as carries is a good thing imo- he is a good distributor.

No doubt. Stats are always skewed somewhat by those clean breaks, though he does consistently seem to make yards and take good options, the majority of times. I like his carrying. He is upright a tad, but then most locks are somewhat, unless they crouch into contact, which Launchbury does more, though to little benefit that I can see. His lines, and acceleration onto the ball have improved, as has Lawes to be fair. He doesn't get knocked back very often and has that ability to thrust post contact to get himself forward.

In one sense I'm just pleased that we have carriers whose first thought isn't to bury themselves into the ground.

And totally with George, and LCD too, and then Sinckler and Mako. Front rows who can carry hard and also bring subtlety through their hands.

Cool- I’m just in the could do better category for Itojes carrying, even if it is on an upwards curve already.

Always room for improvement.

[Mikey Brown]

That said Earl like LCD and Genge is yet to show he can get the job done at test level where in theory everyone can defend, I say in theory as I saw Stockdale play t'other day and clearly not all test players can defend.

Haha. Kolbe looked like he was stepping around a cardboard cutout of a defender. Though I’m sure he’ll do that to many better than Stockdale.

[Digby]

That said Earl like LCD and Genge is yet to show he can get the job done at test level where in theory everyone can defend, I say in theory as I saw Stockdale play t'other day and clearly not all test players can defend.

Haha. Kolbe looked like he was stepping around a cardboard cutout of a defender. Though I’m sure he’ll do that to many better than Stockdale.

Had that been Stockdale's only failing in the game things might have ended up a little different, being kind he had a shocker.

[jngf]

Earl might be one to keep an eye on. 'tis possible much of his carrying looking okay so far has come from being part of an above cap pack. But if that's really his level he might be the strong carrier in the group, though Lawes will have his advocates

I’ve never thought Lawes to be an especially good or strong carrier. Punches below his weight if anything.

Seconded. If anything, I'd rate him as the weakest of our second rows at carrying - he still seems to go upright and get stopped on the gainline.

Puja

I’m finding this a bit surprising Puja, three or four years back Lawes’ carrying was conspicuously absent but since then his carrying has been amongst England’s best in the forwards (be that as a lock or impact flanker) - I would actually say it’s Itoje who is yet to punch his weight as a carrier and given his athleticism and power this has been a source of frustration in the sense of if Itoje could get his technique and body position right he could and indeed really should be a major carrying force for England - but he’s not there yet. Launch is competent carrier and Kruis and Ewels always looked limited in terms of power in the carry too imo.