RugbyRebels

Who could have forgotten Stuart Barnes’s call for Matt Hopper to be new Conrad Smith. Did secretly wish for a Hopper / Hape partnership just for the commentary

Stom wrote:

TheDasher wrote:Personally I'd go:

6 Underhill
7 Curry
8 Vunipola

Bench: Jack Willis

I’m starting to like the look of

Curry
Underhill
Willis

Billy.

Having billy come on against tired defenses could be mayhem. And those 3 in combination would be lethal in and around the breakdown.

Me too I like that. A combo of those four works. Underhill and Curry have been just magnificent, vs Aus and Nz in the WC they were the best I've seen ever in an England shirt. And Jack Willis is I think of similar class. Those three in the match day squad all day long.

Willis and curry together could work so well. A single fetcher can get targeted and reasonably nullified ( maybe not so much if new interpretations are upheld), but a pairlike that is exciting.

FKAS wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Man I do wish John Clarke had been the player he looked in that one 4-minute highlight reel though.

The only who could have possibly broken the invincible Olly Barkley / Ollie Smith midfield

Ah Ollie Smith, so close to going to 2003 RWC and then barely played for England again. Never really forgave Loffreda for forcing him out of Tigers.

Ollie Smith was the best 13 in the NH in 2004/2005 and should've played 6N, then Lions. Instead Andy Robinson selected Mathew Tait before he was ready, then decided to dump him and go safe with Noon for the rest of the tournament. Following that rejection, Smith's dad died unexpectedly and he was never the same player after that. I miss the player he was.

Puja

FKAS wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Man I do wish John Clarke had been the player he looked in that one 4-minute highlight reel though.

The only who could have possibly broken the invincible Olly Barkley / Ollie Smith midfield

Ah Ollie Smith, so close to going to 2003 RWC and then barely played for England again. Never really forgave Loffreda for forcing him out of Tigers.

Yet also a British Lion. Good player no luck with injuries.

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: The only who could have possibly broken the invincible Olly Barkley / Ollie Smith midfield

Ah Ollie Smith, so close to going to 2003 RWC and then barely played for England again. Never really forgave Loffreda for forcing him out of Tigers.

Ollie Smith was the best 13 in the NH in 2004/2005 and should've played 6N, then Lions. Instead Andy Robinson selected Mathew Tait before he was ready, then decided to dump him and go safe with Noon for the rest of the tournament. Following that rejection, Smith's dad died unexpectedly and he was never the same player after that. I miss the player he was.

Puja

That’s a bold claim with the likes of Jauzion and some bloke called O’Driscoll about at the same time. Shank lim and Mark Taylor were pretty good too, as well as Gordon D’arcy.

That said, I was a big Smith fan- lovely outside break amongst other things.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Ah Ollie Smith, so close to going to 2003 RWC and then barely played for England again. Never really forgave Loffreda for forcing him out of Tigers.

Ollie Smith was the best 13 in the NH in 2004/2005 and should've played 6N, then Lions. Instead Andy Robinson selected Mathew Tait before he was ready, then decided to dump him and go safe with Noon for the rest of the tournament. Following that rejection, Smith's dad died unexpectedly and he was never the same player after that. I miss the player he was.

Puja

That’s a bold claim with the likes of Jauzion and some bloke called O’Driscoll about at the same time.

I should caveat that with "on form before the 6N". Obviously in terms of overall quality, BOD was better, but in that autumn and winter, Smith was better.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Ollie Smith was the best 13 in the NH in 2004/2005 and should've played 6N, then Lions. Instead Andy Robinson selected Mathew Tait before he was ready, then decided to dump him and go safe with Noon for the rest of the tournament. Following that rejection, Smith's dad died unexpectedly and he was never the same player after that. I miss the player he was.

Puja

That’s a bold claim with the likes of Jauzion and some bloke called O’Driscoll about at the same time.

I should caveat that with "on form before the 6N". Obviously in terms of overall quality, BOD was better, but in that autumn and winter, Smith was better.

Puja

Better than Jauzion too? On what basis? He didn’t play intl rugby in 2004/5.
He did go on the Lions tour in fairness, but who didn’t.

Smith was a darn good player who should have been an England regular.

A great pity that he was overlooked.

Fraser Walters another who didnt get a look in either.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Ah Ollie Smith, so close to going to 2003 RWC and then barely played for England again. Never really forgave Loffreda for forcing him out of Tigers.

Ollie Smith was the best 13 in the NH in 2004/2005 and should've played 6N, then Lions. Instead Andy Robinson selected Mathew Tait before he was ready, then decided to dump him and go safe with Noon for the rest of the tournament. Following that rejection, Smith's dad died unexpectedly and he was never the same player after that. I miss the player he was.

Puja

That’s a bold claim with the likes of Jauzion and some bloke called O’Driscoll about at the same time. Shank lim and Mark Taylor were pretty good too, as well as Gordon D’arcy.

That said, I was a big Smith fan- lovely outside break amongst other things.

Oh yes! I'd rate Yannick Jauzion as one of the best centres ever - on a par with Philippe Sella.

fivepointer wrote:Smith was a darn good player who should have been an England regular.

A great pity that he was overlooked.

Fraser Walters another who didnt get a look in either.

Smith wasn’t really overlooked - got injured at the wrong times iirc

francoisfou wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Ollie Smith was the best 13 in the NH in 2004/2005 and should've played 6N, then Lions. Instead Andy Robinson selected Mathew Tait before he was ready, then decided to dump him and go safe with Noon for the rest of the tournament. Following that rejection, Smith's dad died unexpectedly and he was never the same player after that. I miss the player he was.

Puja

That’s a bold claim with the likes of Jauzion and some bloke called O’Driscoll about at the same time. Shank lim and Mark Taylor were pretty good too, as well as Gordon D’arcy.

That said, I was a big Smith fan- lovely outside break amongst other things.

Oh yes! I'd rate Yannick Jauzion as one of the best centres ever - on a par with Philippe Sella.

Yep world class

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:
That’s a bold claim with the likes of Jauzion and some bloke called O’Driscoll about at the same time.

I should caveat that with "on form before the 6N". Obviously in terms of overall quality, BOD was better, but in that autumn and winter, Smith was better.

Puja

Better than Jauzion too? On what basis? He didn’t play intl rugby in 2004/5.
He did go on the Lions tour in fairness, but who didn’t.

Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
I should caveat that with "on form before the 6N". Obviously in terms of overall quality, BOD was better, but in that autumn and winter, Smith was better.

Puja

Better than Jauzion too? On what basis? He didn’t play intl rugby in 2004/5.
He did go on the Lions tour in fairness, but who didn’t.

Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.na

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

I think untouchable is a spot of hyperbole. He was very good in patches but best in NH then....hmmm

The Jack Willis of centres.

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
I should caveat that with "on form before the 6N". Obviously in terms of overall quality, BOD was better, but in that autumn and winter, Smith was better.

Puja

Better than Jauzion too? On what basis? He didn’t play intl rugby in 2004/5.
He did go on the Lions tour in fairness, but who didn’t.

Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

A friend of the family managed to get into the same pub on the outskirts of whichever French city it was we'd played and won early 2000s. A drunk and not fully clothed Pat Howard was telling all who'd listen how Ollie Smith was going to be the best centre ever to pull on the Red Rose.

I heard someone who used to frequent the Crumble talk about knowing the Smith's. Ollie and his dad were in the same spot every home game from when Ollie was little all the way up the his teenage years when one day he wasn't. They asked his dad where he was and all he said was "you'll see" next thing he was running out in Tigers colours and his dad apparently had a tear in his eye.

Strong relationship between the two and you are right the loss of his dad hit him really hard. Knee injuries in his late twenties curtailed his career early as well. He still managed a lot of games for Tigers and maybe the season before Loffreda arrived I think he made up a good combination with Hipkiss. Wish we'd kept hold of him because post Loffreda he could have formed a good partnership with Mauger and we could have had brains and power in both 12 and 13 shirts.

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:
Better than Jauzion too? On what basis? He didn’t play intl rugby in 2004/5.
He did go on the Lions tour in fairness, but who didn’t.

Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.na

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

I think untouchable is a spot of hyperbole. He was very good in patches but best in NH then....hmmm

Some parallels with JSD?

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.na

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

I think untouchable is a spot of hyperbole. He was very good in patches but best in NH then....hmmm

Some parallels with JSD?

Injury bad luck maybe, but JSD was the real deal imo. In his pre illness appearances for England he was exceptional.

FKAS wrote:

Puja wrote:

Banquo wrote:
Better than Jauzion too? On what basis? He didn’t play intl rugby in 2004/5.
He did go on the Lions tour in fairness, but who didn’t.

Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

A friend of the family managed to get into the same pub on the outskirts of whichever French city it was we'd played and won early 2000s. A drunk and not fully clothed Pat Howard was telling all who'd listen how Ollie Smith was going to be the best centre ever to pull on the Red Rose.

I heard someone who used to frequent the Crumble talk about knowing the Smith's. Ollie and his dad were in the same spot every home game from when Ollie was little all the way up the his teenage years when one day he wasn't. They asked his dad where he was and all he said was "you'll see" next thing he was running out in Tigers colours and his dad apparently had a tear in his eye.

Strong relationship between the two and you are right the loss of his dad hit him really hard. Knee injuries in his late twenties curtailed his career early as well. He still managed a lot of games for Tigers and maybe the season before Loffreda arrived I think he made up a good combination with Hipkiss. Wish we'd kept hold of him because post Loffreda he could have formed a good partnership with Mauger and we could have had brains and power in both 12 and 13 shirts.

I really liked Smith and was frustrated he never really became the player he could have been- that he didn’t was down to awful luck as much as anything.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Puja wrote:
Based on his domestic and European form throughout 2004 and the beginning of 2005, including Leicester's destruction of Leinster at Lansdowne Road. He was on the Lions tour on form, rather than just because of the ridiculous squad size. Unfortunately, his dad, who was his major influence and mentor, died just before the Lions tour and he took it very, very hard, to the extent of nearly withdrawing from the Lions. He had to take several breaks from the game after that for his mental health and he was never the same player again.na

Obviously, over a whole career, Jauzion and BOD were greats, but in that 12-14 months he was untouchable. Whether he could have sustained that if events had not overtaken things - who knows?

Puja

I think untouchable is a spot of hyperbole. He was very good in patches but best in NH then....hmmm

Some parallels with JSD?

In a different world, we could have had a backline in 2007 of 9. Duncombe, 10. Wilkinson, 11. Lewsey, 12. Abbott, 13. Smith, 14. JSD, 15. Robinson. Would've been a good team.

Puja

Ollie had all the potential in the world, and I was a huge fan - but we all know plenty of players who had that, and failed to translate it into international form.
To be better than 2 genuinely world class players (BOD & Jauzion) I think you need to have proven that you can transition to international rugby - which means being nailed-on starter for your country, and more than 5 caps - however tragic the backstory is.


On the other hand, and I think we need look at why there's such an anti-Gloucester bias in the RFU. It's the only reason anyone can think of that Sinbad and Hazell don't get more caps

Mikey Brown wrote:Aside from his rather manic running style that shouts "energy" (to you) what is it you think Ludlam does better than Curry? Arguably a better lineout jumper. I'm drawing a blank on anything else though, and that's not a swipe at Ludlam in any sense.

Your points about lineout and energy aside (though I do think both players have a coltish friskiness about their play) imo Ludlum is more attack focussed than T Curry which is why I think he balances better with the defence focussed qualities of Underhill than Mr Curry. I note that Ludlum first played center at various age grade levels of rugby and I think that helps.

I do however, appreciate that everybody likes a good Curry and all I’m really saying is imo Ludlum’s the more convincing test level blindside of the two and would equally say that T Curry’s the more convincing test openside in fact I thought the Ludlum 6 T Curry 7 worked rather well when it was tried.

More attack focussed, and used to play centre. I see.

Where were you on Worsley vs Moody at 6 back in the day? Or would that depend on whether the openside was only interested in attacking or defending?

What makes Ludlam more attack focussed? Is it something he's doing different/better in attack or that he's showing up less in defence which affects that balance?

I played Ludlum all the way through age groups for both club and school, he was always a number 8.