England vs Canada - Sat 10th July

[I R Geech]

Possibly the worst 70 point display I’ve ever seen.

[Puja]

So, was there anything we learned from that?

Genge is a phenomenal flat-track bully - has potential for more, but no way of seeing without picking him against the big teams. I thought Slade and Ewels were uttely terrible. Kelly and Steward were enthusiastic and showed potential, but mostly looked like they're two years away from their next cap. Smith was solid and controlled the game well, with an edge of puppyish overenthusiasm at times - he'll benefit from going to the Lions and seeing how big the step up is. Randall was annoyingly poor and has probably given the 21 shirt for November back to Robson. Radwan is fast. Anything else we picked up?

Oh, and Canada need to facilitate a second MLR franchise in Vancouver, pronto. Watching players whose club was marked down as the University of British Colombia and RC National Development Academy get bullied was embarrassing for all concerned. They need two teams to pick from and develop players through, rather than picking 2nd and 3rd stringers from the likes of Aurillac and Austin.

Puja

[Puja]

Why did they play Three Lions on the dot of the final whistle? This is a rugby match and people came here to support rugby. Yes, football's big and important, but for fucks' sake - it could've waited for 10 minutes to let us enjoy a little bit of rugby aftermath before thrusting football back on us.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Not a whole heap to get excited about. 70 pts sounds impressive but when you take out the driving mauls you arent left with a great deal of open, creative play. Canada were desperately poor.
Coka and Radwan were a nice contrast out wide and may be worth a serious look at next season. Heyes confirmed his good impression from last week. Smith got better the more the game wore on. Steward was Ok without ever producing something out of the ordinary. Kelly likewise.
Overall, there are 4 or 5 players who have done themselves no harm, some that may come into the frame later on and some who have experienced their only time with England. Pretty much what we expected.
Pity we lost the Scotland A game and the last 2 opponents couldnt have been a bit more competitive.

[Mikey Brown]

Why did they play Three Lions on the dot of the final whistle? This is a rugby match and people came here to support rugby. Yes, football's big and important, but for fucks' sake - it could've waited for 10 minutes to let us enjoy a little bit of rugby aftermath before thrusting football back on us.

Puja

Yeah, that was pretty cringe. Not as bad as Danny Care starting the football chants in the Quins changing room immediately after winning the final though. It was funny to see all the non-plussed Saffas though, you want us to sing an atomic kitten song with the lyrics changed to be about Gareth Southgate and the England football team?

[Puja]

On the subject of being a dick, this is not the politics board and people come here to get away from it. I'm going to move all of this into a new thread and ship it there, so you can carry on arguing if you like.

Now here, if you want to keep talking cultural appropriation: http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/viewtop ... f=2&t=5371

Mod

[Digby]

Why did they play Three Lions on the dot of the final whistle? This is a rugby match and people came here to support rugby. Yes, football's big and important, but for fucks' sake - it could've waited for 10 minutes to let us enjoy a little bit of rugby aftermath before thrusting football back on us.

Puja

Yeah, that was pretty cringe. Not as bad as Danny Care starting the football chants in the Quins changing room immediately after winning the final though. It was funny to see all the non-plussed Saffas though, you want us to sing an atomic kitten song with the lyrics changed to be about Gareth Southgate and the England football team?

I don't mind them making clear they're supporting another English side, and doing it then gives it the most publicity short of playing it during the game. Also it's not like this was a serious game of rugby

Hard not to acknowledge it's going on, yesterday I saw an interview with the leader of a Belgian political group on the news discussing in theory the consequences of Brexit, and he was diverted into talking England Vs Italy, and that was Channel 4 news I think.

Condolences of course to those who feel saddened if not deep shame at rugby appropriating a football song, one hopes they will be okay.

[Puja]

Why did they play Three Lions on the dot of the final whistle? This is a rugby match and people came here to support rugby. Yes, football's big and important, but for fucks' sake - it could've waited for 10 minutes to let us enjoy a little bit of rugby aftermath before thrusting football back on us.

Puja

Yeah, that was pretty cringe. Not as bad as Danny Care starting the football chants in the Quins changing room immediately after winning the final though. It was funny to see all the non-plussed Saffas though, you want us to sing an atomic kitten song with the lyrics changed to be about Gareth Southgate and the England football team?

I don't mind them making clear they're supporting another English side, and doing it then gives it the most publicity short of playing it during the game. Also it's not like this was a serious game of rugby

Hard not to acknowledge it's going on, yesterday I saw an interview with the leader of a Belgian political group on the news discussing in theory the consequences of Brexit, and he was diverted into talking England Vs Italy, and that was Channel 4 news I think.

Condolences of course to those who feel saddened if not deep shame at rugby appropriating a football song, one hopes they will be okay.

The England rugby team are supporting the England football team? Shock! No wonder they needed to play a football song on the dot of the final whistle - people might have been confused as to their allegiances otherwise!

Puja

[FKAS]

So, was there anything we learned from that?

Genge is a phenomenal flat-track bully - has potential for more, but no way of seeing without picking him against the big teams. I thought Slade and Ewels were uttely terrible. Kelly and Steward were enthusiastic and showed potential, but mostly looked like they're two years away from their next cap. Smith was solid and controlled the game well, with an edge of puppyish overenthusiasm at times - he'll benefit from going to the Lions and seeing how big the step up is. Randall was annoyingly poor and has probably given the 21 shirt for November back to Robson. Radwan is fast. Anything else we picked up?

Puja

I'd say Radwan was more than fast. He took high ball, covered across the back three well and made his tackles. It was a very well rounded performance from a player who's gone from barely mentioned (if ever) in the media to someone who really looks like he should be in the AI squad. Johnny May should be looking over his shoulder nervously.

The back three of Radwan, Cockasiga and Steward really were a good unit. Lovely blend of skills, linked well and at the same time mopped up whatever they needed to. Steward didn't fizz but he never really does, that's not his game he's the fullback that puts his wingers licence to go and look for the opportunities because they know he's got them covered. He did have little to do.

Kelly and Slade had a nice balance to it but Kelly looks raw and Slade just doesn't inspire confidence.

Agree the locks were awful. Wells is a club player that does the nuggety horrible stuff that's his level. Ewels looked worse which is a concern when he has more than 20 caps to his name.

Dombrandt finally got his chance and was merely ok to good. Ludlow would have probably improved the side more by getting the red instead of the yellow card.

Blamire looks like the natural successor to George, hopefully we see him as third choice going forward so that he's in and around the squad getting that experience and being mentored by a couple of Lions hookers.

[Puja]

So, was there anything we learned from that?

Genge is a phenomenal flat-track bully - has potential for more, but no way of seeing without picking him against the big teams. I thought Slade and Ewels were uttely terrible. Kelly and Steward were enthusiastic and showed potential, but mostly looked like they're two years away from their next cap. Smith was solid and controlled the game well, with an edge of puppyish overenthusiasm at times - he'll benefit from going to the Lions and seeing how big the step up is. Randall was annoyingly poor and has probably given the 21 shirt for November back to Robson. Radwan is fast. Anything else we picked up?

Puja

I'd say Radwan was more than fast. He took high ball, covered across the back three well and made his tackles. It was a very well rounded performance from a player who's gone from barely mentioned (if ever) in the media to someone who really looks like he should be in the AI squad. Johnny May should be looking over his shoulder nervously.

The back three of Radwan, Cockasiga and Steward really were a good unit. Lovely blend of skills, linked well and at the same time mopped up whatever they needed to. Steward didn't fizz but he never really does, that's not his game he's the fullback that puts his wingers licence to go and look for the opportunities because they know he's got them covered. He did have little to do.

Kelly and Slade had a nice balance to it but Kelly looks raw and Slade just doesn't inspire confidence.

Agree the locks were awful. Wells is a club player that does the nuggety horrible stuff that's his level. Ewels looked worse which is a concern when he has more than 20 caps to his name.

Dombrandt finally got his chance and was merely ok to good. Ludlow would have probably improved the side more by getting the red instead of the yellow card.

Blamire looks like the natural successor to George, hopefully we see him as third choice going forward so that he's in and around the squad getting that experience and being mentored by a couple of Lions hookers.

The thing is that no-one was really put under any pressure. Yes, Radwan made his tackles and caught high balls, but he wasn't asked to do anything other than make regulation tackles and regulation high balls. Even his tries were running straight lines through spaces that wouldn't be afforded by better defences. I don't see May having to look over his shoulder as he's been the player that produces even when the opposition are dominating and his team's being shithouse (France 6N 2020 springing immediately to mind) - Radwan's got potential and did the best he could possibly do against that opposition in this scratch England side, but it doesn't necessarily signify that he can go to a higher gear in a tougher game. Same with Blamire, Heyes, Steward, etc.

I think the real marker of the success of these internationals is how these neophytes go on to do in Premiership season 21/22. They've seen the top level, they've been analysed by the highest coaches and told - this is what we see in you, this is what we need you to do better, this is your route to coming back into our thoughts. Some of them will take this experience and enjoy it, become the player with 1 or 2 caps who had a really good fortnight. Others will want it and fight for it and devote themselves to delivering what Eddie says they're missing. Start of next season, we'll hopefully see the likes of Blamire/Radwan/Kelly absolutely flying and putting their hands right up.

Puja

[Raggs]

Yeah, I don't think anyone could be said to look good in that game. They could simply look bad. They each get put under more pressure in a regular prem game.

[Danno]

Why did they play Three Lions on the dot of the final whistle? This is a rugby match and people came here to support rugby. Yes, football's big and important, but for fucks' sake - it could've waited for 10 minutes to let us enjoy a little bit of rugby aftermath before thrusting football back on us.

Puja

This. It's a vile song in any event. It's hard to enjoy anything that Baddiel/Skinner did as a result (fuck Ian Brodie, he's a tedious boring grey boring songwriter anyway)

[Magic_sponge]

In a game like this it's difficult, as has been pointed out, to judge performances because of the quality of the opposition, but you CAN compare relative to others in the same team.

They're all playing the same opposition, right? On that basis it looked clear, to me, that Underhill and Genge stood out. Sure some of that is experience and absence of new-cap nerves, but it highlights the gap. When you look at the likes of Ewels, who is relatively experienced internationally now, it is not a good look. Not tearing it up against poor opposition is one thing, but giving away that many penalties is another (which was certainly not just him to be fair)

On that basis I think Steward definitely looked like one for the future but not yet ready. Kelly I think is the same, albeit a bit further away for me, and definitely potential with Radwan, although a lot of competition there at the moment.

What really irritated me is giving Marchant such little game time, and then playing him out of position. Wonder how he could possibly have made a case for starting 13 on the change he was given.

[Magic_sponge]

In that team, they should have been looking at Genge, Ewels, Underhill, and Slade to guide everyone else through, steady the ship when needed, etc. I'd say two did, two didn't.

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah agree with most of that and what Puja said. I'm not sure what Marchant needs to do, aside from putting on a stone or two maybe.

What is the general consensus on Slade at the moment? He never quite took the shirt from Tuilagi so much as inherited it, and Joseph certainly seems to have faded for whatever reason. He still has a fantastic moment or two in most games but it still feels like there could have been so much more. Still not the slightest clue whether Lawrence offers something serious at this level or not.

[jngf]

So, was there anything we learned from that?

Genge is a phenomenal flat-track bully - has potential for more, but no way of seeing without picking him against the big teams. I thought Slade and Ewels were uttely terrible. Kelly and Steward were enthusiastic and showed potential, but mostly looked like they're two years away from their next cap. Smith was solid and controlled the game well, with an edge of puppyish overenthusiasm at times - he'll benefit from going to the Lions and seeing how big the step up is. Randall was annoyingly poor and has probably given the 21 shirt for November back to Robson. Radwan is fast. Anything else we picked up?

Oh, and Canada need to facilitate a second MLR franchise in Vancouver, pronto. Watching players whose club was marked down as the University of British Colombia and RC National Development Academy get bullied was embarrassing for all concerned. They need two teams to pick from and develop players through, rather than picking 2nd and 3rd stringers from the likes of Aurillac and Austin.

Puja

At test level, for me Slade’s brought more to the party on his couple of outings at fullback than he ever has as an outside centre - would also have liked to have given him more time at 12 but with a fly half who would actually give him a pass

Ludlow lucky to get away with a yellow tbh ( if he wasn’t captain I doubt he would)

Having said that, I thought Ludlow did get through a lot of legal “unseen” traditional close quarters blindside work to allow Dombrandt freedom to do his stuff and to an extent Underhill to do his as well.

[Scrumhead]

Sorry - I know you hate me but that’s a very weird statement. How many minutes has Slade had at fullback for England? Probably about 40 in total across 4 or 5 games vs. a hell of a lot more at 13. Really not sure what you’ve seen there?

He has masses of ability, he’s just rarely good for England. A real shame that Marchant didn’t get more of an opportunity.

[jngf]

What a weird statement. How many minutes has Slade had at fullback for England? Probably about 40 in total across 4 or 5 games vs. a hell of a lot more at 13. Really not sure what you’ve seen there?

He has masses of ability, he’s just rarely good for England. A real shame that Marchant didn’t get more of an opportunity.

He’s had more outings at 13 but they’ve been pretty anonymous and Imo Joseph was a better 13 before and Daly might take that shirt off him before too long.

[Puja]

What is the general consensus on Slade at the moment? He never quite took the shirt from Tuilagi so much as inherited it, and Joseph certainly seems to have faded for whatever reason. He still has a fantastic moment or two in most games but it still feels like there could have been so much more. Still not the slightest clue whether Lawrence offers something serious at this level or not.

Slade is annoying the piss out of me at the moment. He has *all* of the skills and he really *should* be a key part of our backline, but he's just not delivering the dominant performances that someone as talented as him should be. And in these games, he was given everything he could need - a hard running 12, an attacking 10, incompetent opposition defences - and I couldn't name a single occasion where he beat a tackler or made a clean break. I was dismissive of Radwan earlier for just running straight, through holes the defence left, but that's more than Slade did across two tests!

He should never have been picked ahead of Marchant for these games given Joe's form for Quins and definitely shouldn't be ahead of him given these two games. At some point, we're going to have to let go of "He should be world class," and acknowledge that, so far, he's not been.

Puja

[FKAS]

So, was there anything we learned from that?

Genge is a phenomenal flat-track bully - has potential for more, but no way of seeing without picking him against the big teams. I thought Slade and Ewels were uttely terrible. Kelly and Steward were enthusiastic and showed potential, but mostly looked like they're two years away from their next cap. Smith was solid and controlled the game well, with an edge of puppyish overenthusiasm at times - he'll benefit from going to the Lions and seeing how big the step up is. Randall was annoyingly poor and has probably given the 21 shirt for November back to Robson. Radwan is fast. Anything else we picked up?

Puja

I'd say Radwan was more than fast. He took high ball, covered across the back three well and made his tackles. It was a very well rounded performance from a player who's gone from barely mentioned (if ever) in the media to someone who really looks like he should be in the AI squad. Johnny May should be looking over his shoulder nervously.

The back three of Radwan, Cockasiga and Steward really were a good unit. Lovely blend of skills, linked well and at the same time mopped up whatever they needed to. Steward didn't fizz but he never really does, that's not his game he's the fullback that puts his wingers licence to go and look for the opportunities because they know he's got them covered. He did have little to do.

Kelly and Slade had a nice balance to it but Kelly looks raw and Slade just doesn't inspire confidence.

Agree the locks were awful. Wells is a club player that does the nuggety horrible stuff that's his level. Ewels looked worse which is a concern when he has more than 20 caps to his name.

Dombrandt finally got his chance and was merely ok to good. Ludlow would have probably improved the side more by getting the red instead of the yellow card.

Blamire looks like the natural successor to George, hopefully we see him as third choice going forward so that he's in and around the squad getting that experience and being mentored by a couple of Lions hookers.

The thing is that no-one was really put under any pressure. Yes, Radwan made his tackles and caught high balls, but he wasn't asked to do anything other than make regulation tackles and regulation high balls. Even his tries were running straight lines through spaces that wouldn't be afforded by better defences. I don't see May having to look over his shoulder as he's been the player that produces even when the opposition are dominating and his team's being shithouse (France 6N 2020 springing immediately to mind) - Radwan's got potential and did the best he could possibly do against that opposition in this scratch England side, but it doesn't necessarily signify that he can go to a higher gear in a tougher game. Same with Blamire, Heyes, Steward, etc.

I think the real marker of the success of these internationals is how these neophytes go on to do in Premiership season 21/22. They've seen the top level, they've been analysed by the highest coaches and told - this is what we see in you, this is what we need you to do better, this is your route to coming back into our thoughts. Some of them will take this experience and enjoy it, become the player with 1 or 2 caps who had a really good fortnight. Others will want it and fight for it and devote themselves to delivering what Eddie says they're missing. Start of next season, we'll hopefully see the likes of Blamire/Radwan/Kelly absolutely flying and putting their hands right up.

Puja

Some average form at Gloucester and heading into his thirties will be adding doubt for Eddie. May will be 33 by the world cup, how does Eddie want to leave it before identifying a potential successor. A lot of wingers drop off rapidly when they start getting towards mid thirties. Some manage to stay on top for longer but I can see Eddie wanting to introduce some new blood and new options going forward.

[Puja]

Ludlow lucky to get away with a yellow tbh ( if he wasn’t captain I doubt he would).

When I first saw Ludlow's knee, it was a red every day of the week.

Third replay, I was 95% sure that it was just extreme clumsiness. He's trying to perform a legal action in stepping through the ruck, it's just extremely low percentage and really f*cking weird. I've no idea why he was looking to do it or what he thought the benefit would be from it - it's just bizarre. But the movement isn't right for a deliberate knee and it'd be weirder to make an unprovoked assault that softly.

I think the ref *probably* came to the right decision in a yellow for being reckless rather than malicious, but he's incredibly, incredibly lucky that it was a patient ref who wanted 15 replays rather than someone who looked at the first one and just handed out the straight red.

Puja

[Raggs]

Reckless doesn't save you from red in a tackle, i don't see why it should have done here either. It's not like the Canadian moves suddenly. And Ludlow was clearly aware of where he was as he held onto the back of his shirt.

When did Slade last play at 15 for England Jngf? Which game impressed you when he was there?

[Magic_sponge]

If we're using the premiership as a benchmark, red every time. That was worse (and much weirder) than lots of the ones I saw from last season. I always thought international was supposed to be less forgiving than domestic too, maybe ref just didn't consider this a proper international.

Or maybe he was put off by how bizarre it was!

[jngf]

Reckless doesn't save you from red in a tackle, i don't see why it should have done here either. It's not like the Canadian moves suddenly. And Ludlow was clearly aware of where he was as he held onto the back of his shirt.

When did Slade last play at 15 for England Jngf? Which game impressed you when he was there?

Think it was in Autumn AIs - pre Covid - so late 2019 - I just recall he looked comfortable and solid under high ball there ( think it may have been a match or two after Furbank made his debut at fullback? )

Stewart looked good but I could see a case for a Slade and Daly job swap as ironically Daly looks far more comfortable at 13 than he ever really has at 15

[jngf]

On a different tack - really enjoyed seeing Underhill contribute massively in attack in these two games - how much it’s down to self improvement, how much down to the balance of the back row selected for these two matches enabling him much more scope to do this than previous combos and how much down to USA and Canada not being physically powerful compared to top tier rugby nations I don’t know but if there’s another British Lions back row call up it’s got his name all over it.

LudLAM’s proved a very versatile back row option too (Including a handy no.8 back up) and really looks to be enjoying his rugby!