RugbyRebels

FKAS wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Raggs wrote:
Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

Pace of the game and defensive organisation are now different level. In the 1970s you didn't have sports science developing a backline who are all 15 stone plus, zero body fat units and a defensive pattern that saw them blitz and limit time on the ball to a second. Professionalism for you. In the 70s you'd never see a prop pass from the base but it's a standard skill now for when the scrum half is trapped in.

whilst all that is true, the number of players who struggle to pass off their weaker hand (usually l-r) in the backline is pretty shocking when they have plenty of time to develop that skill; ditto, the ability to kick off either foot (I note Faz has developed this ability, fair play).

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Raggs wrote:
He gets more ball at 13, which is what you want, even when he's trying to get on the ball from the wing, it doesn't work as well as him being at 13. He's also very good at rucks, both securing and stealing ball, so centres is more useful for that too.

passing, decision making, defence ?....whats the view?

Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

I'm confused now, I thought we were talking about his 'fit' at 13.

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Spiffy wrote:
It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

Pace of the game and defensive organisation are now different level. In the 1970s you didn't have sports science developing a backline who are all 15 stone plus, zero body fat units and a defensive pattern that saw them blitz and limit time on the ball to a second. Professionalism for you. In the 70s you'd never see a prop pass from the base but it's a standard skill now for when the scrum half is trapped in.

whilst all that is true, the number of players who struggle to pass off their weaker hand (usually l-r) in the backline is pretty shocking when they have plenty of time to develop that skill; ditto, the ability to kick off either foot (I note Faz has developed this ability, fair play).

Ask Faz to give a 20m pass off his left hand when there's no defenders nearby to him or the person he's passing to, and I reckon he'll nail it. Ask him to make that pass with a defender about to crack a rib, with 3 other potential options available to him, and the defence closing in on all of them, and it's a tougher skill. All these players can pass off both hands, but with the pace of the game and the defence, you're in an arms race. Only the very best will be able to do something consistently well at the top level, because the defence will be shutting them down faster and faster.

Danno wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Raggs wrote:
Don't know how his decision making is in defence, but he's not afraid to get stuck in which is nice from a winger. Passing isn't his strong suit, but he's not someone you want passing too often in the end.

It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

I fear I'm being a touch too reductive, but it seems to boil down to the idea that, unless you're NZ sans Nonu, defence wins games, so you want a lump in the midfield to help break that line.

Look at Aki, Vaketawa, Tuilagi, Roberts, Basteraeu, etc. etc. They're all at it.

Also Nonu.

Interesting list - Roberts for example has a good all round skill set, just rarely deployed it for Wales in his latter years. Vaketawa similarly a good skill set and offload game. But yes, it seems to be the default for some to run through defenders to try and get over the gainline...

Raggs wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Pace of the game and defensive organisation are now different level. In the 1970s you didn't have sports science developing a backline who are all 15 stone plus, zero body fat units and a defensive pattern that saw them blitz and limit time on the ball to a second. Professionalism for you. In the 70s you'd never see a prop pass from the base but it's a standard skill now for when the scrum half is trapped in.

whilst all that is true, the number of players who struggle to pass off their weaker hand (usually l-r) in the backline is pretty shocking when they have plenty of time to develop that skill; ditto, the ability to kick off either foot (I note Faz has developed this ability, fair play).

Ask Faz to give a 20m pass off his left hand when there's no defenders nearby to him or the person he's passing to, and I reckon he'll nail it. Ask him to make that pass with a defender about to crack a rib, with 3 other potential options available to him, and the defence closing in on all of them, and it's a tougher skill. All these players can pass off both hands, but with the pace of the game and the defence, you're in an arms race. Only the very best will be able to do something consistently well at the top level, because the defence will be shutting them down faster and faster.

I acknowledged the improvement in defences, and I didn't say they 'couldn't pass off both hands' but one is nearly always visibly weaker- but you can and should still improve on those skills; many players can make that quick pass off their good hand- eg faz- but not off their weaker hand...and they should be working on that all the time under pressure in training- it was a standard set of work ons off both hands when I coached tbh. Look at Ben Youngs- can get the ball away reasonably quickly right to left with good distance and speed, but left to right, he pretty always has to take a step, and adjust the ball, and even then is a bit wobbly. Of course its a tougher skill, but its their job and at the highest level it should be better imo. To the point I actually made, Faz has done a decent job of learning to use his left foot for grubbers; still not quite at the wilkinson level of being able to drop a goal with either foot- and there was a player who you couldn't tell what his dominent hand was.

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:

Spiffy wrote:
It's hard to believe that a three quarter who is a poor passer could get close to an international XV. Yet it is not uncommon at the top level now. Take a look at the Welsh team of the 1970s for some nice crisp, fast and accurate passing along the line (and they were amateurs.) Why is this basic skill of the game less evident in the era of professional rugby?

Pace of the game and defensive organisation are now different level. In the 1970s you didn't have sports science developing a backline who are all 15 stone plus, zero body fat units and a defensive pattern that saw them blitz and limit time on the ball to a second. Professionalism for you. In the 70s you'd never see a prop pass from the base but it's a standard skill now for when the scrum half is trapped in.

whilst all that is true, the number of players who struggle to pass off their weaker hand (usually l-r) in the backline is pretty shocking when they have plenty of time to develop that skill; ditto, the ability to kick off either foot(I note Faz has developed this ability, fair play).

That is another of my pet peeves. Coincidentally, I started a discussion thread on it on the Munster fans forum about three days ago, noting that past players like Gibson and Wilkinson worked hard to become ambidextrous (and of course, George Best.) Coaches should be constantly hounding professional players to gain two footed skills if they have not the wit to do it for themselves (particularly half backs.)

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

FKAS wrote:
Pace of the game and defensive organisation are now different level. In the 1970s you didn't have sports science developing a backline who are all 15 stone plus, zero body fat units and a defensive pattern that saw them blitz and limit time on the ball to a second. Professionalism for you. In the 70s you'd never see a prop pass from the base but it's a standard skill now for when the scrum half is trapped in.

whilst all that is true, the number of players who struggle to pass off their weaker hand (usually l-r) in the backline is pretty shocking when they have plenty of time to develop that skill; ditto, the ability to kick off either foot(I note Faz has developed this ability, fair play).

That is another of my pet peeves. Coincidentally, I started a discussion thread on it on the Munster fans forum about three days ago, noting that past players like Gibson and Wilkinson worked hard to become ambidextrous (and of course, George Best.) Coaches should be constantly hounding professional players to gain two footed skills if they have not the wit to do it for themselves (particularly half backs.)

Ambi-pedal? I worked hard on that when I was asked to play 15 at school- and it is bloody difficult and takes many many hours unless you start very young- I only managed to be able to do clearing kicks of c 25 yards, and never mastered anything subtle or accurate off my left foot. Still, these guys should have enough time to get better

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote: whilst all that is true, the number of players who struggle to pass off their weaker hand (usually l-r) in the backline is pretty shocking when they have plenty of time to develop that skill; ditto, the ability to kick off either foot(I note Faz has developed this ability, fair play).

That is another of my pet peeves. Coincidentally, I started a discussion thread on it on the Munster fans forum about three days ago, noting that past players like Gibson and Wilkinson worked hard to become ambidextrous (and of course, George Best.) Coaches should be constantly hounding professional players to gain two footed skills if they have not the wit to do it for themselves (particularly half backs.)

Ambi-pedal? I worked hard on that when I was asked to play 15 at school- and it is bloody difficult and takes many many hours unless you start very young- I only managed to be able to do clearing kicks of c 25 yards, and never mastered anything subtle or accurate off my left foot. Still, these guys should have enough time to get better

Agree about starting young. I've tried it myself and yes, not easy. I think the best way is to start kicking a soccer ball around with your weak foot until you get some feel for it. Then move on to a rugby ball and just start by punting simple short kicks back and forth to a mate with the wrong foot and hope it develops with use. Most will never be as good with the weak foot but most could get a hell of a lot better by just slowly working at it.

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:
That is another of my pet peeves. Coincidentally, I started a discussion thread on it on the Munster fans forum about three days ago, noting that past players like Gibson and Wilkinson worked hard to become ambidextrous (and of course, George Best.) Coaches should be constantly hounding professional players to gain two footed skills if they have not the wit to do it for themselves (particularly half backs.)

Ambi-pedal? I worked hard on that when I was asked to play 15 at school- and it is bloody difficult and takes many many hours unless you start very young- I only managed to be able to do clearing kicks of c 25 yards, and never mastered anything subtle or accurate off my left foot. Still, these guys should have enough time to get better

Agree about starting young. I've tried it myself and yes, not easy. I think the best way is to start kicking a soccer ball around with your weak foot until you get some feel for it. Then move on to a rugby ball and just start by punting simple short kicks back and forth to a mate with the wrong foot and hope it develops with use. Most will never be as good with the weak foot but most could get a hell of a lot better by just slowly working at it.

yep.Improving the pass off the weaker hand is a lot easier.

Banquo wrote:

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Ambi-pedal? I worked hard on that when I was asked to play 15 at school- and it is bloody difficult and takes many many hours unless you start very young- I only managed to be able to do clearing kicks of c 25 yards, and never mastered anything subtle or accurate off my left foot. Still, these guys should have enough time to get better

Agree about starting young. I've tried it myself and yes, not easy. I think the best way is to start kicking a soccer ball around with your weak foot until you get some feel for it. Then move on to a rugby ball and just start by punting simple short kicks back and forth to a mate with the wrong foot and hope it develops with use. Most will never be as good with the weak foot but most could get a hell of a lot better by just slowly working at it.

yep.Improving the pass off the weaker hand is a lot easier.

You rarely see now the old scrum half trick of always passing off his stronger hand by simply swivelling the body around and turning his back to the opposition. E.G. a right handed scrum half has no problems in passing to the left when he is facing the opposition. If he wants to pass to the right, he just swivels around through 180 degrees and, facing his own goal line, delivers a pass to the right off his right hand. This may actually have the advantage of allowing a longer wind up for greater momentum and a faster pass. The disadvantage is that for a moment the SH can't see what's behind him and runs the risk of throwing an intercept pass.

Puja wrote:To put a bit of a dampener on the hype, it is worthwhile noting that the kid is in his first ever professional season and is a complete unknown to most oppositions. Right now, he's got the advantage of players not expecting him to pull off the moves that he is.

His second season, once he's starting for Irish and is a name that opposition coaches will be noting in midweek as a player specifically to shut down, will tell us whether he's going to be a star or not. I'm hopeful that he will, but it will be harder when he goes for gaps that were there before and are now slammed shut.

Puja

What we do know for certain is that as soon as he misses a tackle in a televised game, there'll be a contingent that deem him not up to it defensively until the day he retires.

32nd Man wrote:

Puja wrote:To put a bit of a dampener on the hype, it is worthwhile noting that the kid is in his first ever professional season and is a complete unknown to most oppositions. Right now, he's got the advantage of players not expecting him to pull off the moves that he is.

His second season, once he's starting for Irish and is a name that opposition coaches will be noting in midweek as a player specifically to shut down, will tell us whether he's going to be a star or not. I'm hopeful that he will, but it will be harder when he goes for gaps that were there before and are now slammed shut.

Puja

What we do know for certain is that as soon as he misses a tackle in a televised game, there'll be a contingent that deem him not up to it defensively until the day he retires.

As opposed to the king of missed tackles, his Lordship?

32nd Man wrote:

Puja wrote:To put a bit of a dampener on the hype, it is worthwhile noting that the kid is in his first ever professional season and is a complete unknown to most oppositions. Right now, he's got the advantage of players not expecting him to pull off the moves that he is.

His second season, once he's starting for Irish and is a name that opposition coaches will be noting in midweek as a player specifically to shut down, will tell us whether he's going to be a star or not. I'm hopeful that he will, but it will be harder when he goes for gaps that were there before and are now slammed shut.

Puja

What we do know for certain is that as soon as he misses a tackle in a televised game, there'll be a contingent that deem him not up to it defensively until the day he retires.

I'm bored of him now anyway; he's the past. Does he have a younger brother that we can champion instead?

Puja