May Local Elections

[Stooo]

Yes I can. There is no effective opposition. If you want to win a general election, then it's normally considered a good thing to build some mo entomology in local elections between the main event. Evenin 98 the Tories took seats off the Blair government who were still very popular.

Whilst Corbyn didn't plumb to Michael Foot depths, this wasn't a success for him. Aside from the London mayor result, it was a sign if a party that isn't trusted by the electorate at large. The less said about the Scotland result from a labour perspective the better.

Face some reality, Corbyn is unelectable.

Well go on then.

Living wage.
Greater financing for students from poorer families.
EU referendum delivered.

Your masters gave you a referendum. The other two is bollocks.

[Sandydragon]

Well go on then.

Living wage.
Greater financing for students from poorer families.
EU referendum delivered.

Your masters gave you a referendum. The other two is bollocks.

They are as least as significant as anything Labour managed.

[Sandydragon]

Pointless trying to argue against dogma.

Or in other words , your smart statistic didn't have the effect you thought it might when put into clear context. Better luck next time.

My statistic was to show that such statements of 'fact' are meaningless without context. You accept facts that confirm your own beliefs and reject those that contradict. Confirmation bias.

My point to you was never that Corbyn's result was an unqualified success, as you'd reject that regardless of whatever facts I presented. Your rejection of facts which contradict your viewpoint and acceptance of those confirming was my entire point.

Er, no. The point made below, by me, was that Corbyn failed t have an impact in the recent elections. Compared that is to other opposition leaders. Corbyn held councils, he didn't make any significant gains. Compare that to your example of Cameron, who won 11 councils and gained over 300 seats. Corbyn wasn't in the same category as Michael Foot, but you have to be seriously optimistic, verging on deluded, to see hi winning the next general election unless he can demonstrate an ability to win over voters who aren't Labour Party members.

I'm not rejecting an argument based on dogma. I'm rejecting it base on the result. Spinning last Thursday as some kind of victory for labour is hilarious. From th conservative perspective it's brilliant, they are more than happy to fight Corbyn rather than some of the more electable alternatives.

[UGagain]

Living wage.
Greater financing for students from poorer families.
EU referendum delivered.

Your masters gave you a referendum. The other two is bollocks.

They are as least as significant as anything Labour managed.

I'm no fan of the Labour Party by any means but that statement is patently ridiculous given the economic record.

Labour oversaw (relatively) lower unemployment and underemployment for a start.

[Sandydragon]

Your masters gave you a referendum. The other two is bollocks.

They are as least as significant as anything Labour managed.

I'm no fan of the Labour Party by any means but that statement is patently ridiculous given the economic record.

Labour oversaw (relatively) lower unemployment and underemployment for a start.

Labour inherited a very stable and growing economy from th conservatives. Th conservatives and liberal coalition inherited a disaster. Unemployment figures have been falling since their high following the collapse.

[Sandydragon]

That said, it is undeniable that winning 48% of seats indicates a higher level of support than 41%.

Maintaining the same number of councils as before the election indicates that there is no impact on the fortunes of the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn. Since these.y 70s, there have been only six occasions in a non election year where the opposition have failed to make an impact, especially with a new leader in place. Cameron had an immediate effect on the fortunes of his party, Corbyn has not.

[UGagain]

They are as least as significant as anything Labour managed.

I'm no fan of the Labour Party by any means but that statement is patently ridiculous given the economic record.

Labour oversaw (relatively) lower unemployment and underemployment for a start.

Labour inherited a very stable and growing economy from th conservatives. Th conservatives and liberal coalition inherited a disaster. Unemployment figures have been falling since their high following the collapse.

The Conservative/Liberal coalition made the disaster worse and had to back pedal on their insane austerity drive when the inevitable happened and growth dived.

Unemployment and underemployment in the UK are at scandalous levels and the austerity policies are keeping it that way and will make it worse.

These are policy choices of the current government. It has little if anything to do with what went before. The government chooses the unemployment rate it is comfortable with.

[UGagain]

That said, it is undeniable that winning 48% of seats indicates a higher level of support than 41%.

Maintaining the same number of councils as before the election indicates that there is no impact on the fortunes of the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn. Since these.y 70s, there have been only six occasions in a non election year where the opposition have failed to make an impact, especially with a new leader in place. Cameron had an immediate effect on the fortunes of his party, Corbyn has not.

Cameron didn't face the media and establishment led shit storm of negativity that Corbyn has. Nor did he have the sort of disgraceful, detabilising antics from his own party that the Blairites have engaged in.

Given all that I think it's safe to say that Corbyn is eminently electable. Especially when one compares his policy ambitions against well established polling indicating general public opinion on major issues.

The 'unelectable' tag is a lazy smear.

[Stooo]

They are as least as significant as anything Labour managed.

I'm no fan of the Labour Party by any means but that statement is patently ridiculous given the economic record.

Labour oversaw (relatively) lower unemployment and underemployment for a start.

Labour inherited a very stable and growing economy from th conservatives. Th conservatives and liberal coalition inherited a disaster. Unemployment figures have been falling since their high following the collapse.

No. The number of jsa claimants have been falling as people are FORCED to accept either zero hours contracts or be underemployed in part time work. Or be sanctioned.

All the while we have more young unemployed people than we ever have had.

As the economy grows by 1.7%..... just 156th in the world. Yay for tory economic dogma. Even the IFS (which are right wing) have savaged osbournes policies as absolute bollocks.

Since last year 24 u-turns have been made by this government. They're an absolute fucking shambles and it's moron's like you continuing to blindly follow them that is absolutely fucking the rest of us.

[Stooo]

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2016 ... ble-people

All whilst they're now also going to be sanctioning low paid people who are in work (and might have never worked before) for not earning enough...

LOVELY.

[Stooo]

That said, it is undeniable that winning 48% of seats indicates a higher level of support than 41%.

Maintaining the same number of councils as before the election indicates that there is no impact on the fortunes of the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn. Since these.y 70s, there have been only six occasions in a non election year where the opposition have failed to make an impact, especially with a new leader in place. Cameron had an immediate effect on the fortunes of his party, Corbyn has not.

Cameron didn't face the media and establishment led shit storm of negativity that Corbyn has. Nor did he have the sort of disgraceful, detabilising antics from his own party that the Blairites have engaged in.

Given all that I think it's safe to say that Corbyn is eminently electable. Especially when one compares his policy ambitions against well established polling indicating general public opinion on major issues.

The 'unelectable' tag is a lazy smear.

Whilst a corbyn fan I have found it highly annoying that he hasn't managed to get this under control. It's been his only failing imo.

[UGagain]

Maintaining the same number of councils as before the election indicates that there is no impact on the fortunes of the Labour Party following the election of Corbyn. Since these.y 70s, there have been only six occasions in a non election year where the opposition have failed to make an impact, especially with a new leader in place. Cameron had an immediate effect on the fortunes of his party, Corbyn has not.

Cameron didn't face the media and establishment led shit storm of negativity that Corbyn has. Nor did he have the sort of disgraceful, detabilising antics from his own party that the Blairites have engaged in.

Given all that I think it's safe to say that Corbyn is eminently electable. Especially when one compares his policy ambitions against well established polling indicating general public opinion on major issues.

The 'unelectable' tag is a lazy smear.

Whilst a corbyn fan I have found it highly annoying that he hasn't managed to get this under control. It's been his only failing imo.

I think their economic arguments are dreadful. You can't really oppose neoliberalism by constraining your policies within the neoliberal paradigm of balanced 'budgets'.

McDonnell is utterly clueless afaiac.

Deficits are a number on a spreadsheet. Tell the public that FFS.

But yeah, why is Benn still in the shadow cabinet? He should have been bounced after that Syria garbage.

[jared_7]

Cameron didn't face the media and establishment led shit storm of negativity that Corbyn has. Nor did he have the sort of disgraceful, detabilising antics from his own party that the Blairites have engaged in.

Given all that I think it's safe to say that Corbyn is eminently electable. Especially when one compares his policy ambitions against well established polling indicating general public opinion on major issues.

The 'unelectable' tag is a lazy smear.

Whilst a corbyn fan I have found it highly annoying that he hasn't managed to get this under control. It's been his only failing imo.

I think their economic arguments are dreadful. You can't really oppose neoliberalism by constraining your policies within the neoliberal paradigm of balanced 'budgets'.

McDonnell is utterly clueless afaiac.

Deficits are a number on a spreadsheet. Tell the public that FFS.

But yeah, why is Benn still in the shadow cabinet? He should have been bounced after that Syria garbage.

You can see what they were trying to do; unite the party and pull them all to the left.

But its clear the Blairites have no desire to work with him on anything, he would now be better off booting them all out, copping the initial storm but then a few months down the track that storm blows over and he at least has a unified party.

Its disgraceful the stuff coming out of the Labour party, they are continuing to push the line he is unelectable but that is only because they are making it so.

[Stom]

Can you honestly say that you'd like to see the continuation of this tory administration?

If so please can you list for me what things you think they have done... or are doing well...

Yes I can. There is no effective opposition. If you want to win a general election, then it's normally considered a good thing to build some mo entomology in local elections between the main event. Evenin 98 the Tories took seats off the Blair government who were still very popular.

Whilst Corbyn didn't plumb to Michael Foot depths, this wasn't a success for him. Aside from the London mayor result, it was a sign if a party that isn't trusted by the electorate at large. The less said about the Scotland result from a labour perspective the better.

Face some reality, Corbyn is unelectable.

If I may return to this. Could you answer the question in terms of their performance as an administration. Which doesn't mean whether they have been elected or not, it just means what they have done in office.

So what have they done well in office?

[Stooo]

Can you honestly say that you'd like to see the continuation of this tory administration?

If so please can you list for me what things you think they have done... or are doing well...

Yes I can. There is no effective opposition. If you want to win a general election, then it's normally considered a good thing to build some mo entomology in local elections between the main event. Evenin 98 the Tories took seats off the Blair government who were still very popular.

Whilst Corbyn didn't plumb to Michael Foot depths, this wasn't a success for him. Aside from the London mayor result, it was a sign if a party that isn't trusted by the electorate at large. The less said about the Scotland result from a labour perspective the better.

Face some reality, Corbyn is unelectable.

If I may return to this. Could you answer the question in terms of their performance as an administration. Which doesn't mean whether they have been elected or not, it just means what they have done in office.

So what have they done well in office?

They've made it easier for students from poorer families go to uni..... by removing maintenance grants.

Oh and cutting bursaries for nurses... yaaaay!

[Stooo]

Industry falls back in recession.

yaaaaay go TORIES!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36266178

[morepork]

Good to see personalities, not policies are at the forefront of the electorates mind these days.

"Unelectable". FFS...

[fivepointer]

Corbyn's real enemies are those within his own party, some of whom have been actively trying to undermine him since his election to the leadership. I thought this might settle down and the right wing accept - albeit grudgingly - that Corbyn had won fair and square and they had to back him. Seems that the project to remove him isnt going to be easily thwarted.

It wouldnt surprise me if he quit before the next election. But first he will want to get reforms in place that give the membership a far greater say in the direction of the party. That may be his legacy.

Its also worth pointing out that the next GE is 4 years away. Yes, 4 years, not 4 months. That is a heck of a long time and a great deal is going to happen in that time. We have the EU referendum and the inevitable fall out within the Tory party afterwards. Plus, a change in leadership when Cameron steps down. Anyone for Johnson as PM?

Nothing is certain at this point.

[morepork]

Boris and Trump would be like a political Jedward. They would cream it on the chat show circuit, and maybe as a Polish pop band.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Corbyn is doing only marginally worse than Milliband according to the election results. However he's going to have less favourable election arithmetic after the boundary changes and he'll need to reverse the near universal trend of opposition leaders (and parties) getting less popular as elections near.

[UGagain]

Whilst a corbyn fan I have found it highly annoying that he hasn't managed to get this under control. It's been his only failing imo.

I think their economic arguments are dreadful. You can't really oppose neoliberalism by constraining your policies within the neoliberal paradigm of balanced 'budgets'.

McDonnell is utterly clueless afaiac.

Deficits are a number on a spreadsheet. Tell the public that FFS.

But yeah, why is Benn still in the shadow cabinet? He should have been bounced after that Syria garbage.

You can see what they were trying to do; unite the party and pull them all to the left.

But its clear the Blairites have no desire to work with him on anything, he would now be better off booting them all out, copping the initial storm but then a few months down the track that storm blows over and he at least has a unified party.

Its disgraceful the stuff coming out of the Labour party, they are continuing to push the line he is unelectable but that is only because they are making it so.

Indeed. It's clear that the Blairites won't play nicely, so it's time to kick some heads. He needs a Mandelson type of operator to start cracking skulls.

He could start by isolating everyone in Sainsbury's little group of closet neoconservatives and threatening them with deselection.

And he should stop talking about deficits.

[Sandydragon]

Can you honestly say that you'd like to see the continuation of this tory administration?

If so please can you list for me what things you think they have done... or are doing well...

Yes I can. There is no effective opposition. If you want to win a general election, then it's normally considered a good thing to build some mo entomology in local elections between the main event. Evenin 98 the Tories took seats off the Blair government who were still very popular.

Whilst Corbyn didn't plumb to Michael Foot depths, this wasn't a success for him. Aside from the London mayor result, it was a sign if a party that isn't trusted by the electorate at large. The less said about the Scotland result from a labour perspective the better.

Face some reality, Corbyn is unelectable.

If I may return to this. Could you answer the question in terms of their performance as an administration. Which doesn't mean whether they have been elected or not, it just means what they have done in office.

So what have they done well in office?

Mate, read the thread, I've already covered this. However, if the Tories are doing such a bad job, why isn't corbyns Labour Party doing a lot better? Milliband had the baggage of blame for the crash to deal with. 2 elections later and Corbyn should be wiping the floor with the Tories n local elections. But he isn't, at best he is holding his own councils in England whilst losing hugely in Scotland.

The point made repeatedly by me, and ignored repeatedly by Corbyn supporters, is that labour needs to pick up a lot of seats to form the next government in 2020. Labour aren't looking like they are convincing undecideds or even Tory voters to give them a chance. And they need some Scottish seats, which looks unlikely as well.

At the moment Corbyn is talking to his core supporters, but he needs to engage wider if he wants a realistic chance of getting to Downing Street.

[Sandydragon]

Corbyn's real enemies are those within his own party, some of whom have been actively trying to undermine him since his election to the leadership. I thought this might settle down and the right wing accept - albeit grudgingly - that Corbyn had won fair and square and they had to back him. Seems that the project to remove him isnt going to be easily thwarted.

It wouldnt surprise me if he quit before the next election. But first he will want to get reforms in place that give the membership a far greater say in the direction of the party. That may be his legacy.

Its also worth pointing out that the next GE is 4 years away. Yes, 4 years, not 4 months. That is a heck of a long time and a great deal is going to happen in that time. We have the EU referendum and the inevitable fall out within the Tory party afterwards. Plus, a change in leadership when Cameron steps down. Anyone for Johnson as PM?

Nothing is certain at this point.

Aye, the Tories could completely implode. Otherwise, there is still a mountain to climb. Labour need to convert Tory supporters, or at least make them think that a labour government wouldn't be that bad. At the moment they aren't. there is a while to go, but that work needs to start form them sooner rather than later, but to listen to Corbyn, he isn't interested in reaching out to those who support other parties. As EW points out, the new boundaries will be making life even harder for labour, without effectively not trying to appeal to large portions of the electorate.

[UGagain]

Corbyn's real enemies are those within his own party, some of whom have been actively trying to undermine him since his election to the leadership. I thought this might settle down and the right wing accept - albeit grudgingly - that Corbyn had won fair and square and they had to back him. Seems that the project to remove him isnt going to be easily thwarted.

It wouldnt surprise me if he quit before the next election. But first he will want to get reforms in place that give the membership a far greater say in the direction of the party. That may be his legacy.

Its also worth pointing out that the next GE is 4 years away. Yes, 4 years, not 4 months. That is a heck of a long time and a great deal is going to happen in that time. We have the EU referendum and the inevitable fall out within the Tory party afterwards. Plus, a change in leadership when Cameron steps down. Anyone for Johnson as PM?

Nothing is certain at this point.

Aye, the Tories could completely implode. Otherwise, there is still a mountain to climb. Labour need to convert Tory supporters, or at least make them think that a labour government wouldn't be that bad. At the moment they aren't. there is a while to go, but that work needs to start form them sooner rather than later, but to listen to Corbyn, he isn't interested in reaching out to those who support other parties. As EW points out, the new boundaries will be making life even harder for labour, without effectively not trying to appeal to large portions of the electorate.

Not appeasing Tory economic lunacy is Corbyn's raison d'etre. Playing Milliband's game would see his suport plummet and Labour lose the momentum that his election has created.

The electorate has a problem with the neoliberals in the Labour right more than it does with the left.

That may not fit with the media narrative but it is the reality.

[Stones of granite]

Corbyn's real enemies are those within his own party, some of whom have been actively trying to undermine him since his election to the leadership. I thought this might settle down and the right wing accept - albeit grudgingly - that Corbyn had won fair and square and they had to back him. Seems that the project to remove him isnt going to be easily thwarted.

It wouldnt surprise me if he quit before the next election. But first he will want to get reforms in place that give the membership a far greater say in the direction of the party. That may be his legacy.

Its also worth pointing out that the next GE is 4 years away. Yes, 4 years, not 4 months. That is a heck of a long time and a great deal is going to happen in that time. We have the EU referendum and the inevitable fall out within the Tory party afterwards. Plus, a change in leadership when Cameron steps down. Anyone for Johnson as PM?

Nothing is certain at this point.

Aye, the Tories could completely implode. Otherwise, there is still a mountain to climb. Labour need to convert Tory supporters, or at least make them think that a labour government wouldn't be that bad. At the moment they aren't. there is a while to go, but that work needs to start form them sooner rather than later, but to listen to Corbyn, he isn't interested in reaching out to those who support other parties. As EW points out, the new boundaries will be making life even harder for labour, without effectively not trying to appeal to large portions of the electorate.

Not appeasing Tory economic lunacy is Corbyn's raison d'etre. Playing Milliband's game would see his suport plummet and Labour lose the momentum that his election has created.

The electorate has a problem with the neoliberals in the Labour right more than it does with the left.

That may not fit with the media narrative but it is the reality.

But the inconvenient reality is that Labour have no momentum. In the local authority elections they had zero gain of council control, and lost council seats, while in the Scottish Parliament they were relegated to third behind the Tories.

That is, at the most optimistic, just about holding position.