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Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:33 am
by morepork
Keep putting it off. It's bad enough having to cope with France and Ireland without your big bastard athletes being given some actual coaching.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:56 pm
by Crash Hamster
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:50 pm
francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:25 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:29 pm
Trouble is, they will tell us the square root of nothing, so inevitably a punt.
If there weren't any Tests, you're right that we'd know the square root of fa, but four Tests will at least give the players a chance to show us their worth.
are they real Tests or just warm ups?
I reckon we'll see Wales v England A and England v Wales A.
It'd be nice to see a full side away to Ireland, but it'll probably be an A side at home to Fiji.
Any performances must be taken with a pinch of salt...
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:16 pm
by francoisfou
Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:56 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:50 pm
francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:25 pm
If there weren't any Tests, you're right that we'd know the square root of fa, but four Tests will at least give the players a chance to show us their worth.
are they real Tests or just warm ups?
I reckon we'll see Wales v England A and England v Wales A.
It'd be nice to see a full side away to Ireland, but it'll probably be an A side at home to Fiji.
Any performances must be taken with a pinch of salt...
Yes, I suppose they'll be classified as warm-up matches but I'll be disappointed if full strength sides don't play and I'd expect Syd Barrett to include some new squad players like Rapava-Ruskin, George Martin, Cadan Murley, Raffi Quirke, Tom Willis and Zach Mercer.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 3:45 pm
by Banquo
Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:56 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 9:50 pm
francoisfou wrote: ↑Mon Mar 20, 2023 6:25 pm
If there weren't any Tests, you're right that we'd know the square root of fa, but four Tests will at least give the players a chance to show us their worth.
are they real Tests or just warm ups?
I reckon we'll see Wales v England A and England v Wales A.
It'd be nice to see a full side away to Ireland, but it'll probably be an A side at home to Fiji.
Any performances must be taken with a pinch of salt...
well yes.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 4:53 pm
by Oakboy
Crash Hamster wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:56 pm
Any performances must be taken with a pinch of salt...
To an extent. Results certainly. Maybe, performance evidence of improvement in cohesion, less discipline-induced mistakes and players prepared to take a risk or two in attack could be welcomed without conditions attached?
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2023 5:11 pm
by 16th man
What we won't know about the warm ups until the actual rwc squad announcement is if Shandy BassDrink will be using them to shape selection of the squad or as part of the process of grooving in his preferred players for the tournament.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:00 am
by Epaminondas Pules
If previous RWC camps are to go by they'll start with a very extended squad and gradually whittle it down through training and then warm ups.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:03 am
by Mellsblue
Yep, and that’s when the coaching team had a decent run up so has time to rule people out. It could go either way, enlarged squad to get a look at everyone in contention or condensed squad to get everything installed that would normally take months/years.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
by Mikey Brown
Nobody tends to play full strength teams much in the warm ups so they?
Anyway here’s a bunch of fringe/unproven names I’d like to see, with no particular logic or reason.
1. VRR
2. Walker
3. Stuart
4. Ribbans
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Willis/Mercer
9. Quirke
10. Ford (c)
11. OHC
12. Kelly
13. Marchant/Lawrence
14. Murley
15. Arundell
Blamire, Rodd, Heyes, Coles, Willis/Mercer, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant/Lawrence
Not sure that second row selection is particularly fair on Walker. Who is actually our next best lineout forward? It’s still Ewels isn’t it…
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:43 am
by Oakboy
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
Nobody tends to play full strength teams much in the warm ups so they?
Anyway here’s a bunch of fringe/unproven names I’d like to see, with no particular logic or reason.
1. VRR
2. Walker
3. Stuart
4. Ribbans
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Willis/Mercer
9. Quirke
10. Ford (c)
11. OHC
12. Kelly
13. Marchant/Lawrence
14. Murley
15. Arundell
Blamire, Rodd, Heyes, Coles, Willis/Mercer, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant/Lawrence
Not sure that second row selection is particularly fair on Walker. Who is actually our next best lineout forward? It’s still Ewels isn’t it…
I'd rather see Launchbury tested out. Is he fit? If so, the guy is pure class and must be worth a shout in the RWC short-term sense.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:13 am
by Mikey Brown
I'd love to think Launchbury is still up to it but I really have no idea. I really hope so as he's coming to Quins next season. Currently off for a galavant in Japan I believe and I have no idea how their season ties in with the RWC camps etc. or if that would be considered enough of a proving ground for form.
It figures that Borthwick would have a good understanding of the level of that league, but I don't know that following Launchbury would be high on his list of priorities?
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:20 am
by Mellsblue
Now all I want from England’s RWC campaign is a Launchbury tour de force proving what a class act he is.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:27 am
by jngf
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:20 am
Now all I want from England’s RWC campaign is a Launchbury tour de force proving what a class act he is.
Agreed, I think England’s scrum always has an edge with a physical presence like Dooley, Johnson, Shaw or Launch in the mix - they don’t necessarily have to be an enforcer as such just an expert in the mauls and other tight areas of play. I think Chessum and Ribbans have the potential to maintain this tradition
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
by FKAS
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:43 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
Nobody tends to play full strength teams much in the warm ups so they?
Anyway here’s a bunch of fringe/unproven names I’d like to see, with no particular logic or reason.
1. VRR
2. Walker
3. Stuart
4. Ribbans
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Willis/Mercer
9. Quirke
10. Ford (c)
11. OHC
12. Kelly
13. Marchant/Lawrence
14. Murley
15. Arundell
Blamire, Rodd, Heyes, Coles, Willis/Mercer, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant/Lawrence
Not sure that second row selection is particularly fair on Walker. Who is actually our next best lineout forward? It’s still Ewels isn’t it…
I'd rather see Launchbury tested out. Is he fit? If so, the guy is pure class and must be worth a shout in the RWC short-term sense.
The only two issues with Launchbury are keeping him fit and the fact he isn't a very strong lineout jumper. We'd have to consider making a change to the backrow in order to work around that. We had the best maul in the 6N and a really good lineout. Not a strength Steely Bottle is going to want to give up.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
by Oakboy
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:43 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
Nobody tends to play full strength teams much in the warm ups so they?
Anyway here’s a bunch of fringe/unproven names I’d like to see, with no particular logic or reason.
1. VRR
2. Walker
3. Stuart
4. Ribbans
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Willis/Mercer
9. Quirke
10. Ford (c)
11. OHC
12. Kelly
13. Marchant/Lawrence
14. Murley
15. Arundell
Blamire, Rodd, Heyes, Coles, Willis/Mercer, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant/Lawrence
Not sure that second row selection is particularly fair on Walker. Who is actually our next best lineout forward? It’s still Ewels isn’t it…
I'd rather see Launchbury tested out. Is he fit? If so, the guy is pure class and must be worth a shout in the RWC short-term sense.
The only two issues with Launchbury are keeping him fit and the fact he isn't a very strong lineout jumper. We'd have to consider making a change to the backrow in order to work around that. We had the best maul in the 6N and a really good lineout. Not a strength Steely Bottle is going to want to give up.
I'd be happy to just see him in the squad. Itoje and Chessum (if fit??) are a decent 1st choice pairing. I still think Hill is better than Ribbans but those two plus Launchbury gives a decent back-up - better than trying to lever in somebody untested at this stage anyway.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
by jngf
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:43 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:27 am
Nobody tends to play full strength teams much in the warm ups so they?
Anyway here’s a bunch of fringe/unproven names I’d like to see, with no particular logic or reason.
1. VRR
2. Walker
3. Stuart
4. Ribbans
5. Martin
6. Hill
7. Curry
8. Willis/Mercer
9. Quirke
10. Ford (c)
11. OHC
12. Kelly
13. Marchant/Lawrence
14. Murley
15. Arundell
Blamire, Rodd, Heyes, Coles, Willis/Mercer, Mitchell, Smith, Marchant/Lawrence
Not sure that second row selection is particularly fair on Walker. Who is actually our next best lineout forward? It’s still Ewels isn’t it…
I'd rather see Launchbury tested out. Is he fit? If so, the guy is pure class and must be worth a shout in the RWC short-term sense.
The only two issues with Launchbury are keeping him fit and the fact he isn't a very strong lineout jumper. We'd have to consider making a change to the backrow in order to work around that. We had the best maul in the 6N and a really good lineout. Not a strength Steely Bottle is going to want to give up.
Given we have a backrow with 3 lineout targets all of whom are 6’3” or taller ( compared to Kamikaze kids + Billy when we arguably didn’t have any) I think we can afford to be a bit more flexible on the lineout abilities on one of our locks so long as their partner e.g. Itoje is an expert
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:57 am
by Banquo
jngf wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:53 am
FKAS wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 11:43 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 10:43 am
I'd rather see Launchbury tested out. Is he fit? If so, the guy is pure class and must be worth a shout in the RWC short-term sense.
The only two issues with Launchbury are keeping him fit and the fact he isn't a very strong lineout jumper. We'd have to consider making a change to the backrow in order to work around that. We had the best maul in the 6N and a really good lineout. Not a strength Steely Bottle is going to want to give up.
Given we have a backrow with 3 lineout targets all of whom are 6’3” or taller ( compared to Kamikaze kids + Billy when we arguably didn’t have any) I think we can afford to be a bit more flexible on the lineout abilities on one of our locks so long as their partner e.g. Itoje is an expert
That's assuming we persevere with the back row that has given the slowest ruck speed in the 6N and who were wiped out by France
, and are part of a team with the worst tackle completion.
Willis I would be starting for sure of your favoured back three.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:02 pm
by Mellsblue
Lawes will almost certainly be at 6 if fit so no need for Launch to jump in too many line outs and misjudge too many restarts.
On which point, backrow for the World Cup:
6. Lawes
7. J Willy
8. T Cuzza
?!?!?!?
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:59 pm
by SixAndAHalf
fivepointer wrote: ↑Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:50 am
1. Genge out and out #1. Mako looks shot. Rodd should have been given a run. Val R-R must come into the squad
2. George flogged, Walker used sparingly so we dont really know if he's a viable option. LCD will come back but outside of that there is McGuigan, Blamire and ??? Theo Dan seems like a possible WC bolter
3. Sinkler hardly uprooting trees, Cole a bit long in the tooth. We need Stuart back and in form and Heyes to really kick on. Outside of that we are going to have to take a punt.
4/5. Actually some development. Itoje is a class operator, Chessum emerged as a genuine international talent and we've seen what Ribbans can offer. A fit Launchbury would be a really useful asset with the WC in mind.
6/7. Willis has looked good, Ludlam was willing, the Curry's are both fine players. We badly missed Lawes and there must be some scope to bring in Hill or Martin. Pearson seems ready for a squad place.
8. Still undecided about Dombrandt. In a better performing team he might be the perfect fit. Right now a grafter like Mercer or T Willis seems a better option.
9. Youngs out so thats some improvement. JVP yet to really nail down the spot. Mitchell looked lively when given a chance. Ideally Quirke comes back into contention fr the WC.
10. Smith didnt really advance his case, Ford unused, Farrell predictably ordinary. Given time to get fit, I'm sure Ford will come into the matchday squad.
12. Lawrence can play there, though he's not really an IC. Kelly's injury was a blow as we could with seeing if he can cut it. Options are desperately thin in this position, hence the form of Atkinson is of great interest.
13. Slade hardly shone. England arent getting the best out of him and i'm not sure whether thats him or the coaches. Marchant is a tidy option and with a proper IC Lawrence could fit in here. Tuilagi is really past it.
11/14. Arundell got a start and showed that he has a lot to do. Thats no bad thing. OHC never quite clicked, Freeman oddly ignored along with Murley, Malins a bit hit and miss, Watson was fine. Daly bound to come back into contention when fit.
15. Steward was reliable and consistent. Did a lot more good than bad.
This a great summary - I think ultimately the ceiling for this team at the World Cup will depend on whether Ford is fit and trusted to play with a proper centre partnership. He is best placed to execute SB's high %s game plan while actually getting the outside backs involved.
Interesting to see Guscott expressing doubts about Farrell (
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/ex-engla ... toje-form/) - makes me feel less crazy now others are seeing it!
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:07 pm
by SixAndAHalf
For the world cup I'd like to see the following (which retains some consistency from the six nations):
Genge; LCD; Stuart; Chessum; Itoje; Lawes; Curry; Willis; Quirke; Ford; Arundell; Lawrence; Slade; Watson; Steward
VRR; George; Sinckler; Ribbans; Mercer; Mitchell; Farrell; Freeman
I think that team can put in a good showing given our side of the draw but it will be difficult to match the likes of France and Ireland who have built up to this for four years.
As mentioned before, Tight Head and Hooker lacks depth so we will need to keep them wrapped in cotton wool!
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:25 pm
by Mikey Brown
Oof. Freeman didn’t even make my fringe team. I’m not sure what it is about this guy that makes me completely incapable of remembering he exists. Whatever it is, Borthwick seems to suffer from the same.
This seems as apt a place as any for some more bizarre ratings. I’m genuinely not sure if these ones are player impact/effort ratings or ratings of how SB used them, as some of the explanations are very odd/inconsistent.
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/england- ... ions-2023/
No prizes at all for guessing which one is my favourite of the bunch. Poor kicking, lacks creativity and can’t tackle, but showed stiff upper lip, therefore scores better than Willis, Steward, Genge and the shadow formerly known as Maro Itoje.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:36 pm
by Mellsblue
Embarrassing. This theory that bouncing back from being crap at kicking during a match is worthy of high praise is ridiculous enough when it just one facet of his game but this is a whole new level of sycophancy.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:44 pm
by fivepointer
Owen Farrell – 6
4 starts, 1 run as sub (354 mins): Continued to have his detractors, especially for his ineffective No12 appearance against the Scots. Wasn’t a hugely creative No10 either and there were too many missed tackles (15 overall), but let’s give him credit for his reaction to getting the round four chop, fixing his issues off the kicking tee and defiantly exhibiting stiff upper lip leadership against the odds in Dublin. The question privately is how damaged his captaincy relationship now is with Borthwick.
Priceless, isnt it?
Poor old Dan Cole got a whole 1. He may not have lit up games but you get a 1 for basically managing to put your kit on and stand for the anthem.
Dan Cole – 1
5 runs as sub (94 mins): Had way more time than sub hooker Walker but he was essentially another passenger. There was a scrum penalty win in his first minute of Test rugby since 2019 when sent on against the Scots but didn’t make an impression after that.
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 2:56 pm
by Mikey Brown
Yet Mako gets 4.5 and Walker a 1 for... not being allowed to play?
Are the extra few clicks from people like us sharing these (mostly in bemusement) actually worth the time?
Re: Squad Depth - What have we learned?
Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 4:27 pm
by jngf
Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:02 pm
Lawes will almost certainly be at 6 if fit so no need for Launch to jump in too many line outs and misjudge too many restarts.
On which point, backrow for the World Cup:
6. Lawes
7. J Willy
8. T Cuzza
?!?!?!?
Why would he pick a makeshift no.8 ?