Borthwick’s England 2.0

[Banquo]

Sure. We've got a whole load of premiership form and a reshape of the squad to take in to account before the 6 nations, but he is currently the only back-row showing any form and he is not a number 8 long-term, so I don't see any issue with my statement.

I'd hope/assume the pecking order is something like this?

6. T Curry / Ludlam / Hill
7. Earl / Willis / B Curry / Pearson
8. Mercer / Willis / Dombrandt

Maybe T Curry continues as an openside and we want a better jumper at 6, but something like that. Dombrandt appears to have fallen off the map completely but it will be interesting to see if he can still fight his way back in against two (immensely talented, but at the top level) untested 8s.

Dombrandt has been in good form the first games of the season. Looked good and made important interventions

plus ca change

[Stom]

Sure. We've got a whole load of premiership form and a reshape of the squad to take in to account before the 6 nations, but he is currently the only back-row showing any form and he is not a number 8 long-term, so I don't see any issue with my statement.

I'd hope/assume the pecking order is something like this?

6. T Curry / Ludlam / Hill
7. Earl / Willis / B Curry / Pearson
8. Mercer / Willis / Dombrandt

Maybe T Curry continues as an openside and we want a better jumper at 6, but something like that. Dombrandt appears to have fallen off the map completely but it will be interesting to see if he can still fight his way back in against two (immensely talented, but at the top level) untested 8s.

Dombrandt has been in good form the first games of the season. Looked good and made important interventions

plus ca change

I think it’s worth asking the question if we’re going to adapt our systems.

But generally I do think Mercer or TWillis should get a look

[Oakboy]

He looked superb in little cameos yesterday but I think T Willis and Mercer now deserve chances ahead of him. T Willis should get the 6N and then go from there.

Out of interest, why Willis over Mercer? More generally, I find it very strange that we left these two behind and picked a (clearly very rusty) Vunipola ahead of them

I think there is something about Willis that means he will end up being better at international level than club level. His potential ceiling is higher than Mercer's, I suspect. He was more or less the next cab off the rank in squad terms anyway and I can't see a reason to change that. There is time for Willis to fail and Mercer to get the next chance after him if necessary - or to make a case for a bench slot should Willis succeed.

[16th man]

Earl has earned the right to play at 7

By being effective as a fast carrying 8, whilst Curry did the 7 work?

You think he's a full time 8 now? Do you see it like the Savea situation? He performed very well, but he's still an open-side and will be playing there for his club. I'd be happy to see Willis/Pearson/Curry take his spot in the 23, as he's still really annoying, but he has played very well.

Curry was... fine I guess. He has a huge amount of credit in the bank, but frankly he's been using that up for quite a long time now. He hasn't demanded selection in the way Earl has in the world cup.

I still think the best we've seen from him was when he was at 6 anyway, but I wonder if the constant changing of roles (on top of a lot of minutes) over the last few years has stalled his progress a bit. It seemed like he bulked up massively to play 8 and now he does that Haskell-esque rigor mortis waddle, which seems less than ideal for an openside.

I think Earls has shown that he can be very effective playing as a certain kind of 8. If that's the type of 8 that Strawberry Bubblegum wants to deploy for the future, then he certainly has the capacity to be the man for the job. Alternatively, if that's how we want our 7 to play, then fine, put him there, but as it stands they've wanted what Curry offers in that shirt.

Therefore unless we're going to see a complete shift of what the back row tasking will be in the 6Ns then he shouldn't be picked at 7 from his world cup performances.

I think Curry's best individual displays came as a classic 7 when he first came through into the side. The most effective unit he was in was the Chunderhill + peak Billy 2017 through 19, when he was in the 6 shirt, but doing more of he standard 7 stuff in a bit of an almost left /right combo.

He's certainly not been as good since the brain dead 8 experiment, which was probably the first flashing red warning light that the Jones cupboard was bare, and it would be chucking stuff at the wall in the hope something wouid stick from then on in. However, much like Itoje, I think a lot of him not being as effective (when he has been back on the flank) is down to the shitshow he's been playing in, with so many more of his interventions being desperate rescue missions.

[Puja]

Therefore unless we're going to see a complete shift of what the back row tasking will be in the 6Ns then he shouldn't be picked at 7 from his world cup performances.

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

[Banquo]

Therefore unless we're going to see a complete shift of what the back row tasking will be in the 6Ns then he shouldn't be picked at 7 from his world cup performances.

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

#theforgottenwillis

[Mikey Brown]

Isn't Jack Willis unqualified for selection (and injured) actually?

[Danno]

I believe so, I think it's only ex L Irish overseas players that can be picked now, and only as far as the 6N if I remember right

[Puja]

Therefore unless we're going to see a complete shift of what the back row tasking will be in the 6Ns then he shouldn't be picked at 7 from his world cup performances.

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

#theforgottenwillis

Steffon Armitage rules - if he wants back in, he knows what he has to do, and it's not "complain to the newspapers that my cake doesn't appear to be here anymore after I ate it."

Puja

[Banquo]

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

#theforgottenwillis

Steffon Armitage rules - if he wants back in, he knows what he has to do, and it's not "complain to the newspapers that my cake doesn't appear to be here anymore after I ate it."

Puja

lol, also, I must confess to forgetting he can't play as it stands

[TheDasher]

A few things on this thread:
- a few have kept Sinckler in the picture. He hasn't played well for a few years now and if we're going for global domination (which we should be of course) then I think we've seen that he's not at the required level at scrum time - I think we have to give other players a go. I'd move on from him.

- Itoje being captain... I am not so sure about this. Great player but from the interviews I've seen/podcasts I've watched, I don't think he's that type of character. Seems pretty monotone, quiet, insular/introverted. I'm not sure he's our captain even though he's a fine player.

- People mentioning Dombrandt. I think we've seen in this WC that your backrow needs to be all action - literally all action, so defence, breakdown, covering the ground relentlessly. Dombrandt has looked like a passenger in defence and in his breakdown work for England. Lovely player, great skills, a big man etc, but I'm not sure he's the man for trying to gain dominance over an Irish or French pack. But Mercer is a bit of a flair player I hear you say! Yes sure but he hasn't been picked for England in the last few years so deserves a chance to show us he can do it all. I'd have thought between TWillis (my choice), Mercer and Earl we have no8 pretty well covered.

Sweaty ballbag needs to have a totally open door to looking at all options at Prop, Hooker, 2nd row (could do with another good one under Itoje, Martin/Chessum), scrum half and wing.

Go on ballbag, be bold.

Of course he won't be but one can dream.

[Puja]

#theforgottenwillis

Steffon Armitage rules - if he wants back in, he knows what he has to do, and it's not "complain to the newspapers that my cake doesn't appear to be here anymore after I ate it."

Puja

lol, also, I must confess to forgetting he can't play as it stands

I had actually forgotten his existence as well, so your point still stands.

Puja

[Puja]

A few things on this thread:
- a few have kept Sinckler in the picture. He hasn't played well for a few years now and if we're going for global domination (which we should be of course) then I think we've seen that he's not at the required level at scrum time - I think we have to give other players a go. I'd move on from him.

To where, to whom? It's our constant problem at tighthead - Heyes and Painter haven't kicked on, PHill appears content with his reversion to mediocrity, Collier has been useless when tried and isn't much more than a scrummager even at his best, Stuart looked briefly like the answer before reverting to being a question again - the list is endless of players who aren't good enough and, while I acknowledge the impulse to add Sinckler to it, the truth is that he's closer than any of the others.

Meanwhile, on the other side, Baxter appears to be breaking through and offering us yet another option on the loosehead. Typical.

Puja

[TheDasher]

A few things on this thread:
- a few have kept Sinckler in the picture. He hasn't played well for a few years now and if we're going for global domination (which we should be of course) then I think we've seen that he's not at the required level at scrum time - I think we have to give other players a go. I'd move on from him.

To where, to whom? It's our constant problem at tighthead - Heyes and Painter haven't kicked on, PHill appears content with his reversion to mediocrity, Collier has been useless when tried and isn't much more than a scrummager even at his best, Stuart looked briefly like the answer before reverting to being a question again - the list is endless of players who aren't good enough and, while I acknowledge the impulse to add Sinckler to it, the truth is that he's closer than any of the others.

Meanwhile, on the other side, Baxter appears to be breaking through and offering us yet another option on the loosehead. Typical.

Puja

Well to start with, I think an on form, hyped up Stuart is a better scrummager than Sinck. That aside, my point is that Borthwick needs to look at them all, every available English tighthead prop over the age of 20 and make some bold calls. I'm not going to list every TH in the prem here now, but Borthers needs to and work out a plan. Sinck is not the answer so steve needs to find one, even if it means two totally new untried and untested options, provided he thinks the ability is there. After all Bevan Rodd and Blamire started last time we beat the boks. Go and do the same but on the TH side.

[fivepointer]

England would be well advised to keep an eye on James Harper at Sale. Got the size, is very mobile, good hands, just 23 who a lot of people think highly of. He could be the one to fill the TH void.
They should be very interested in developments at Exeter who have 3 guys who have considerable potential. Painter (who has started the season well) and Schickerling are 25, while Street (who needs an injury free run) is 24.
Right now England need to try and get the best out of Sinckler and Stuart. If we want a journeyman scrummager who doesnt do much outside the scrum we could do worse than bring in Fraser Balmain who is rarely bettered in that area.
Alternatively wait 3 seasons for Fasogbon to move out of teenagerhood.

[Puja]

A few things on this thread:
- a few have kept Sinckler in the picture. He hasn't played well for a few years now and if we're going for global domination (which we should be of course) then I think we've seen that he's not at the required level at scrum time - I think we have to give other players a go. I'd move on from him.

To where, to whom? It's our constant problem at tighthead - Heyes and Painter haven't kicked on, PHill appears content with his reversion to mediocrity, Collier has been useless when tried and isn't much more than a scrummager even at his best, Stuart looked briefly like the answer before reverting to being a question again - the list is endless of players who aren't good enough and, while I acknowledge the impulse to add Sinckler to it, the truth is that he's closer than any of the others.

Meanwhile, on the other side, Baxter appears to be breaking through and offering us yet another option on the loosehead. Typical.

Puja

Well to start with, I think an on form, hyped up Stuart is a better scrummager than Sinck. That aside, my point is that Borthwick needs to look at them all, every available English tighthead prop over the age of 20 and make some bold calls. I'm not going to list every TH in the prem here now, but Borthers needs to and work out a plan. Sinck is not the answer so steve needs to find one, even if it means two totally new untried and untested options, provided he thinks the ability is there. After all Bevan Rodd and Blamire started last time we beat the boks. Go and do the same but on the TH side.

I think we need to keep in perspective that Sinckler was bettered by probably the most destructive loosehead scrummager in world rugby right now - it's not like he was turned over by Geoff from Dingford 3rds. We are not in an emergency situation where every scrum is going to be like the last 10 minutes of the semi-final if Sinckler plays. And "on form" for Stuart is not a small caveat, especially since Sinckler's hardly "on form, hyped up" either. Neither have been near their best for a good while.

Also, while I get the idea of "chuck the kids in", I want them showing something that makes me believe that they are close to Sinckler's current level. I want to give the youth experience, I don't want to give them the experience of being humiliated and having to be hoiked off because they're out of their depth.

England would be well advised to keep an eye on James Harper at Sale. Got the size, is very mobile, good hands, just 23 who a lot of people think highly of. He could be the one to fill the TH void.
They should be very interested in developments at Exeter who have 3 guys who have considerable potential. Painter (who has started the season well) and Schickerling are 25, while Street (who needs an injury free run) is 24.
Right now England need to try and get the best out of Sinckler and Stuart. If we want a journeyman scrummager who doesnt do much outside the scrum we could do worse than bring in Fraser Balmain who is rarely bettered in that area.
Alternatively wait 3 seasons for Fasogbon to move out of teenagerhood.

Fasogbon is the great hope for me, but there's a good bit of time before he'll be ready. Harper has been talked up a lot, but I've not seen much of him myself and he doesn't seem to be making much of an impact on the Sale starting XV, which is worrying (admittedly, he's had shitty luck with injuries). Painter's start to the season is very encouraging - he has a lot of untapped potential that I'm hoping Exeter can extract.

Puja

[FKAS]

Harper at Sale has yet to start a league game but at least he's getting more minutes now as he seems to be the understudy to Schonert.

First choice THs in the Prem:

Falcons - McCallum
Sale - Schonert
Tigers - Cole/Heyes
Saints - Hill/Davison
Gloucester - Balmain
Bath - Stuart
Bristol - Sinckler
Exeter - Painter
Sarries - Riccioni
Quins - Collier

There isn't much to get excited about there even though only one (maybe two, not sure on McCallum) are not EQ.

We are really hoping that Heyes bounces back from an average season last year, Stuart refinds his form or the move to Chiefs rejuvenates Painter. To be fair Painter has been decent for Chiefs so far.

Schickerling I suppose could be an option if he's actually EQ.

[Puja]

Schickerling is qualified from November this year, however he appears to be third choice at Exeter so far.

Puja

[TheDasher]

To where, to whom? It's our constant problem at tighthead - Heyes and Painter haven't kicked on, PHill appears content with his reversion to mediocrity, Collier has been useless when tried and isn't much more than a scrummager even at his best, Stuart looked briefly like the answer before reverting to being a question again - the list is endless of players who aren't good enough and, while I acknowledge the impulse to add Sinckler to it, the truth is that he's closer than any of the others.

Meanwhile, on the other side, Baxter appears to be breaking through and offering us yet another option on the loosehead. Typical.

Puja

Well to start with, I think an on form, hyped up Stuart is a better scrummager than Sinck. That aside, my point is that Borthwick needs to look at them all, every available English tighthead prop over the age of 20 and make some bold calls. I'm not going to list every TH in the prem here now, but Borthers needs to and work out a plan. Sinck is not the answer so steve needs to find one, even if it means two totally new untried and untested options, provided he thinks the ability is there. After all Bevan Rodd and Blamire started last time we beat the boks. Go and do the same but on the TH side.

I think we need to keep in perspective that Sinckler was bettered by probably the most destructive loosehead scrummager in world rugby right now - it's not like he was turned over by Geoff from Dingford 3rds. We are not in an emergency situation where every scrum is going to be like the last 10 minutes of the semi-final if Sinckler plays. And "on form" for Stuart is not a small caveat, especially since Sinckler's hardly "on form, hyped up" either. Neither have been near their best for a good while.

Also, while I get the idea of "chuck the kids in", I want them showing something that makes me believe that they are close to Sinckler's current level. I want to give the youth experience, I don't want to give them the experience of being humiliated and having to be hoiked off because they're out of their depth.

England would be well advised to keep an eye on James Harper at Sale. Got the size, is very mobile, good hands, just 23 who a lot of people think highly of. He could be the one to fill the TH void.
They should be very interested in developments at Exeter who have 3 guys who have considerable potential. Painter (who has started the season well) and Schickerling are 25, while Street (who needs an injury free run) is 24.
Right now England need to try and get the best out of Sinckler and Stuart. If we want a journeyman scrummager who doesnt do much outside the scrum we could do worse than bring in Fraser Balmain who is rarely bettered in that area.
Alternatively wait 3 seasons for Fasogbon to move out of teenagerhood.

Fasogbon is the great hope for me, but there's a good bit of time before he'll be ready. Harper has been talked up a lot, but I've not seen much of him myself and he doesn't seem to be making much of an impact on the Sale starting XV, which is worrying (admittedly, he's had shitty luck with injuries). Painter's start to the season is very encouraging - he has a lot of untapped potential that I'm hoping Exeter can extract.

Puja

On Sinckler - I'm not being reactionary, I think he's been poor for England for the last couple of years. We need to force through a bit of evolution basically.

[Beasties]

A few things on this thread:
- a few have kept Sinckler in the picture. He hasn't played well for a few years now and if we're going for global domination (which we should be of course) then I think we've seen that he's not at the required level at scrum time - I think we have to give other players a go. I'd move on from him.

To where, to whom? It's our constant problem at tighthead - Heyes and Painter haven't kicked on, PHill appears content with his reversion to mediocrity, Collier has been useless when tried and isn't much more than a scrummager even at his best, Stuart looked briefly like the answer before reverting to being a question again - the list is endless of players who aren't good enough and, while I acknowledge the impulse to add Sinckler to it, the truth is that he's closer than any of the others.

Meanwhile, on the other side, Baxter appears to be breaking through and offering us yet another option on the loosehead. Typical.

Puja

Well to start with, I think an on form, hyped up Stuart is a better scrummager than Sinck. That aside, my point is that Borthwick needs to look at them all, every available English tighthead prop over the age of 20 and make some bold calls. I'm not going to list every TH in the prem here now, but Borthers needs to and work out a plan. Sinck is not the answer so steve needs to find one, even if it means two totally new untried and untested options, provided he thinks the ability is there. After all Bevan Rodd and Blamire started last time we beat the boks. Go and do the same but on the TH side.

Stuart has looked to me like he’s got an underlying injury issue these last few weeks/months. He’s sought turf constantly in the scrums. He was a better scrummager while at Wasps frankly but has filled out a lot since, hence me wondering if he’s not 100% currently. I’ve not given up on him completely but jeez, he’s making it hard work holding a candle. He’s half decent in the loose though (low bar etc).

Mind, after all the above, I can’t offer anyone up right now except the lad at Sale who I haven’t seen since he was injured. How old is he now? 36?

Edit; note to self, read rest of thread before posting.

Agreed on Nche, he’s the Chocci of world rugby currently, destroyer of worlds. But Sinck actually did better than expected (you fill in the blanks…).

[jngf]

Therefore unless we're going to see a complete shift of what the back row tasking will be in the 6Ns then he shouldn't be picked at 7 from his world cup performances.

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

Interestingly I’m hoping Underhill still comes into the equation if he can regain form. Given he’s played 6 at Ospreys ( alongside Tipuric at 7) and on occasion 8 at Bath, and has a carrying game more 6/8 than linkman - I think he still might have a lot more to bring to the party, maybe as a utility backrow impact player to begin with?

[Puja]

Therefore unless we're going to see a complete shift of what the back row tasking will be in the 6Ns then he shouldn't be picked at 7 from his world cup performances.

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

Interestingly I’m hoping Underhill still comes into the equation if he can regain form. Given he’s played 6 at Ospreys ( alongside Tipuric at 7) and on occasion 8 at Bath, and has a carrying game more 6/8 than linkman - I think he still might have a lot more to bring to the party, maybe as a utility backrow impact player to begin with?

I actually 100% agree with you on that - he definitely has a lot of value to offer England still and I think would be an absolute asset at 6 alongside one of the fleet youngsters. Problem is fitness - I have no faith in him not being about to be knocked out any minute. If he can go 6 months without a concussion, then I want to look at him again.

Puja

[jngf]

We likely are, with the retirement of Lawes. The England back row since 2019 has been about fitting Lawes in, or preparing for his return when injured - almost as disruptive as the pathological need to pick Farrell, although Lawes did at least have good games sometimes. Now that he's gone, we should be moving back to having two flankers, which will change quite a lot. Plus, moving away from BillyV means that we don't need a lineout option on the flank, especially if we do go with TWillis or Mercer at 8.

I'd imagine we're looking at TCurry/Ludlam fighting it out for 6, and Earl/Pearson competing over 7.

Puja

Interestingly I’m hoping Underhill still comes into the equation if he can regain form. Given he’s played 6 at Ospreys ( alongside Tipuric at 7) and on occasion 8 at Bath, and has a carrying game more 6/8 than linkman - I think he still might have a lot more to bring to the party, maybe as a utility backrow impact player to begin with?

I actually 100% agree with you on that - he definitely has a lot of value to offer England still and I think would be an absolute asset at 6 alongside one of the fleet youngsters. Problem is fitness - I have no faith in him not being about to be knocked out any minute. If he can go 6 months without a concussion, then I want to look at him again.

Puja

It’s one of those whatmighthavebeens but a fit backrow of 6 T Curry, 7 Underhill and 8 Falatau might have even swung that 2021 Lions series in SA

[Danno]

First choice THs in the Prem:

Falcons - McCallum
Sale - Schonert
Tigers - Cole/Heyes
Saints - Hill/Davison
Gloucester - Balmain
Bath - Stuart
Bristol - Sinckler
Exeter - Painter
Sarries - Riccioni
Quins - Collier

There isn't much to get excited about there even though only one (maybe two, not sure on McCallum) are not EQ.

Damn that's stark. Alarming number that are there for set piece and ruck inspecting like it's the 80s (particularly if picked at intl level)

[TheDasher]

Pearson is an absolute beast of a player. Went too upright into Jack Morgan and got dumped in the warm-ups and immediately became rubbish.

Seriously though - from what I've seen of him he's a hell of talent.