Farrell takes a break

[Puja]

So, are we all agreed that it's Ford for 10 for the 6N? Long way to go in terms of form (and it'll be nice to actually be able to pick that area of the England team on form for once, rather than it being irrelevant how well anyone is playing cause the selection's already decided) and the European games will be a bit test for more than a few English players.

I'd also be tempted by Ford for captain as well. If Itoje genuinely doesn't fancy it as Banquo suggests (given the amount of racist social media abuse that Rashford and Saka got after the Euros, I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't fancy putting his head above the parapet for dickheads to shoot at), then the only other option is Genge and I'm not keen on a captain who isn't 100% guaranteed his place in the starting lineup. Has Marler retired from England yet, or is he still available?

Puja

[p/d]

I'd be looking at Smith for 10. I am still intrigued to see what this 'other role' is that Ford has been tasked with to do from the, well, not starting position.

As for captain, couldn't care to be honest. Pick the best XV then from that pick ya chap who speaks to the ref.

[Mikey Brown]

The trouble is that it is not an ordinary player. It is one that we were constantly reminded was extraordinary.

Well yes. Exactly.

The media tends to be completely hyperbolic about him whether it’s good or bad. That’s what McCall was saying. They feed off all the of the drama and vitriol in comments sections (I always imagine places like this are quite small and self-contained compared to social media and newspaper comments sections but who knows) because it gets clicks.

That isn’t anything new, but it’s certainly ramped up given how many people use those platforms and what a high profile player he is.

I would have stuck with Lawes as captain too, FWIW, but I don’t see why Borthwick should have had to compromise unless Farrell asked not to be captain.

I’m not aware of him saying he wishes he hadn’t been playing or hadn’t been captain. He’s just said he wants a break from it and to see more of his family. I don’t get how there’s any issue there at all.

[Oakboy]

I'd be looking at Smith for 10. I am still intrigued to see what this 'other role' is that Ford has been tasked with to do from the, well, not starting position.

As for captain, couldn't care to be honest. Pick the best XV then from that pick ya chap who speaks to the ref.

Ford is the safe pair of hands but I'd pick Smith. One danger with picking Ford (probably seen by SB as an advantage) is that there is 'same-old' or 'continuity', depending on your viewpoint. Picking Smith invites a new approach. Picking Ford does not.

That extends to back row and back lIne selection where changes are inevitable. Ford to nurse new selections in the old way or Smith to stir things up?

Of course IF SB still believes Farrell is the best and is wanting to keep the shirt for him it will be Ford. He's already demonstrated that Ford cannot play well enough to keep the shirt having reinstated Farrell at the first opportunity following the red card. Smith just might get to keep the shirt given his head, the right players around him and the right playing style. I'll vote for that.

[Spiffy]

So, are we all agreed that it's Ford for 10 for the 6N? Long way to go in terms of form (and it'll be nice to actually be able to pick that area of the England team on form for once, rather than it being irrelevant how well anyone is playing cause the selection's already decided) and the European games will be a bit test for more than a few English players.

I'd also be tempted by Ford for captain as well. If Itoje genuinely doesn't fancy it as Banquo suggests (given the amount of racist social media abuse that Rashford and Saka got after the Euros, I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't fancy putting his head above the parapet for dickheads to shoot at), then the only other option is Genge and I'm not keen on a captain who isn't 100% guaranteed his place in the starting lineup. Has Marler retired from England yet, or is he still available?

Puja

Eh. Are you seriously suggesting Joe "Grab his balls and call him a gypo" Marler for the exalted position of captain of the England rugby team?

[Mikey Brown]

I don’t think he is.

[Puja]

I'd be looking at Smith for 10. I am still intrigued to see what this 'other role' is that Ford has been tasked with to do from the, well, not starting position.

As for captain, couldn't care to be honest. Pick the best XV then from that pick ya chap who speaks to the ref.

Ford is the safe pair of hands but I'd pick Smith. One danger with picking Ford (probably seen by SB as an advantage) is that there is 'same-old' or 'continuity', depending on your viewpoint. Picking Smith invites a new approach. Picking Ford does not.

That extends to back row and back lIne selection where changes are inevitable. Ford to nurse new selections in the old way or Smith to stir things up?

Of course IF SB still believes Farrell is the best and is wanting to keep the shirt for him it will be Ford. He's already demonstrated that Ford cannot play well enough to keep the shirt having reinstated Farrell at the first opportunity following the red card. Smith just might get to keep the shirt given his head, the right players around him and the right playing style. I'll vote for that.

Fair points all around. Depends on what we're asking from our centres. If we're picking a neophyte like SAtkinson, Ojomoh, or Kelly at 12, are we better off having Ford as the experienced head? If we are crowbarring Lawrence in at 12 or picking further adventures in Manu Tuilagi, then I'd be tempted by your plan to have Smith to stir things up, but I'm wary of going full tyro. Although, given we have Italy, then Wales at home, it's probably the easiest permutation of opening fixtures.

Puja

[Puja]

So, are we all agreed that it's Ford for 10 for the 6N? Long way to go in terms of form (and it'll be nice to actually be able to pick that area of the England team on form for once, rather than it being irrelevant how well anyone is playing cause the selection's already decided) and the European games will be a bit test for more than a few English players.

I'd also be tempted by Ford for captain as well. If Itoje genuinely doesn't fancy it as Banquo suggests (given the amount of racist social media abuse that Rashford and Saka got after the Euros, I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't fancy putting his head above the parapet for dickheads to shoot at), then the only other option is Genge and I'm not keen on a captain who isn't 100% guaranteed his place in the starting lineup. Has Marler retired from England yet, or is he still available?

Puja

Eh. Are you seriously suggesting Joe "Grab his balls and call him a gypo" Marler for the exalted position of captain of the England rugby team?

Poorly worded - I was questioning whether Marler had retired in terms of whether Genge is now our undisputed first choice loosehead, rather than proposing him for captain.

Puja

[Puja]

Itoje captaining Saracens this weekend.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

McCall continuing his 4D chess shenanigans.

[fivepointer]

Has Ford ever captained any side he's played in? Realistically its either him, Genge or Itoje. I'm not too hung up on who it is.

I'd have Ford at 10 in between Mitchell and a new 12. Lawrence would be my 13.

[Puja]

Has Ford ever captained any side he's played in? Realistically its either him, Genge or Itoje. I'm not too hung up on who it is.

I'd have Ford at 10 in between Mitchell and a new 12. Lawrence would be my 13.

Ford has captained England before and I believe he captained Leicester on several occasions. However, he's never been full-time captain - it'd be an odd decision for Sloping Bandstand to pick him over Genge when he didn't do so for Leicester.

Agreed on your backline, although not sure who the new 12 would be as none of the youngsters are demanding selection rn. Depends which of them doesn't wilt during Europe, I guess.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Has Ford ever captained any side he's played in? Realistically its either him, Genge or Itoje. I'm not too hung up on who it is.

I'd have Ford at 10 in between Mitchell and a new 12. Lawrence would be my 13.

Ford has captained England before and I believe he captained Leicester on several occasions. However, he's never been full-time captain - it'd be an odd decision for Sloping Bandstand to pick him over Genge when he didn't do so for Leicester.

Agreed on your backline, although not sure who the new 12 would be as none of the youngsters are demanding selection rn. Depends which of them doesn't wilt during Europe, I guess.

Puja

Yeah I think with Lawrence and Slade both in good form at the moment we’re likely to see one of them at 12.

It does seem surprising Ford has never been a full time club captain. I would have assumed he had. He generally seemed to be next in line after Hartley/Faz in Jones’s early days for England.

[Banquo]

Has Ford ever captained any side he's played in? Realistically its either him, Genge or Itoje. I'm not too hung up on who it is.

I'd have Ford at 10 in between Mitchell and a new 12. Lawrence would be my 13.

Ford has captained England before and I believe he captained Leicester on several occasions. However, he's never been full-time captain - it'd be an odd decision for Sloping Bandstand to pick him over Genge when he didn't do so for Leicester.

Agreed on your backline, although not sure who the new 12 would be as none of the youngsters are demanding selection rn. Depends which of them doesn't wilt during Europe, I guess.

Puja

Yeah I think with Lawrence and Slade both in good form at the moment we’re likely to see one of them at 12.

It does seem surprising Ford has never been a full time club captain. I would have assumed he had. He generally seemed to be next in line after Hartley/Faz in Jones’s early days for England.

10s very rarely make good skippers at top level, too difficult on top of being usually managing the game.

[SixAndAHalf]

I’m not aware of him saying he wishes he hadn’t been playing or hadn’t been captain. He’s just said he wants a break from it and to see more of his family. I don’t get how there’s any issue there at all.

Where has this been said? Not being a knob but I'm currently basing my opinion on the limited official statement plus Mccall's comments so seeing more would be interesting!

[morepork]

But it is being made personal. He is not my choice as England first choice 10, a 12 or captain but think he has been unfairly blamed for Englands last 2 years+ of failings. He is a hardworking and very professional player, who regularly is the last player off the field with signing autographs and having photos taken.
However, have to trust all those successful coaches who do rate him and see positives, players (both teammates and opponents from around the world like Beauden Barrett,, Stuart Hogg, POM and even Finn Russell etc)
Comments from everywhere about him being 'arrogant', 'over aggressive' (having 'anger issues which posters on here have identified) 'petulant' etc (which again his peers defend him on) and even questioning his intelligence and, with the Saracens salary cap breaches, his 'morals', have become personal.

He does have issues with temperament, that is very actually on record. He is angry more than he is diplomatic. Observation, not opinion. You are willfully obtuse if you can't see him as a roadblock to development. That aint any kind of personal criticism, it's just business. He doesn't select himself, so no blame on him, but his continued selection in the face of actual performance is baffling. No, I'm not interested in the thought experiment of saying this to his face, because a). it's not personal, and b). it's not my job to point out the glaringly obvious. Others are paid good coin to do that.

[Mikey Brown]

I’m not aware of him saying he wishes he hadn’t been playing or hadn’t been captain. He’s just said he wants a break from it and to see more of his family. I don’t get how there’s any issue there at all.

Where has this been said? Not being a knob but I'm currently basing my opinion on the limited official statement plus Mccall's comments so seeing more would be interesting!

Maybe I’m paraphrasing too loosely. I thought that had always been the gist of it?

[Oakboy]

I’m not aware of him saying he wishes he hadn’t been playing or hadn’t been captain. He’s just said he wants a break from it and to see more of his family. I don’t get how there’s any issue there at all.

Where has this been said? Not being a knob but I'm currently basing my opinion on the limited official statement plus Mccall's comments so seeing more would be interesting!

Maybe I’m paraphrasing too loosely. I thought that had always been the gist of it?

Reading between the lines is bound to lead us into misinterpretation if limited information is announced. I took words like 'for the mental well-being of him and his family' to be more about a shared upset about the booing but there may have been nasty social media stuff that has not been made public. At no point did I suspect he was suffering from separation stress such as Marler and others have suffered but he may well have been. Based on praise he received in camp for the way he handled the red card business, I assumed that he was not suffering from too much international rugby in camp, squad or team but, again, he may have been if that praise was 'political'.

The fact is that he is England's highest-profile player. Speculation is inevitable. It is up to him and the professionals around him to choose what is best for him in publicity terms.

[p/d]

I don’t think we need to know the reasons. They are private and should remain as such.

What we don’t need is 2 page spreads by the likes of Gatland telling us he knows what Owen is going through just because one disgruntled Irish fan text him derogatory messages. Isolated incidents becomes sweeping condemnation of ardent loyal supporters of rugby.

[jngf]

I do not think this is the same as a physical injury. Nobody carries on playing for his club with that. A full break from rugby on mental health grounds would also have been different.

If, and I stress, if, the booing upset him that badly what will he suffer when he returns to the international fold? That, for me, is the crunch. Regardless of whether he is a good/bad player/fly half/captain/tackler, he is likely to make things worse for himself with this decision in the long run.

The worst manager I ever had in work took me for a one-to-one meeting one day when I was near the breaking point of my mental health and asked me if there was a problem. I explained that I was struggling and finding things very difficult right now, to which his response was, "Well, if you're not able to cope with stress, maybe you should consider whether this is the right job for you. Because things are always going to be stressful and it won't get better."

Unsurprisingly, this was not the advice that I needed at the time. I kept fighting on and a few months later something happened in my personal life that finished me off and a different manager told me that I wasn't allowed to take the morning off to deal with it and then make up the hours later in the week, he needed me to go to the doctors and get signed off properly, because I was Not Okay. I ended up taking 4 months off and that second manager probably saved my life.

I am still in that job and now very successful at it*. Although my mental health is still far from perfect and does require managing, I am coping fine with probably more stress than I was dealing with back then - as it turns out, the problem was not that I "wasn't able to cope with stress" or that I needed to resign from that job, it was that I was seriously ill. I have now taken the actions that were needed to recover and I can do the job again.


It's also incredibly reductive to say, "Well, if there was something really wrong with him, then he wouldn't be playing for Saracens." Quite apart from the fact that we absolutely should fucking not be implying that someone with a mental health problem is just being a bit sensitive and can't have a real problem otherwise he'd be doing X, I don't see any inconsistency in reducing work responsibilities to remove the higher stress, higher intensity duties temporarily while they get better. Some people benefit from a complete break, some people benefit from trying to keep going as much as they can but being sensible about reducing their workload.

Puja


*Sadly, the first manager is also still at the company and has been promoted up the ranks. The second one was not valued very highly as he wasn't ruthless and driving enough to produce the figures and has since left.

Says everything about the piss poor standard of management in UK (and I expect worldwide) - it’s not what you know but who you know and s**t floats up to the top as evidenced by recent occupants of no.10 - my rant aside, moving and thought provoking Puja

[p/d]

We get it. You don’t like the Conservative Party.

I believe there is a political board somewhere on here for your gripes

[Oakboy]

We get it. You don’t like the Conservative Party.

I believe there is a political board somewhere on here for your gripes

He has a point about management, I regret to say, leaving any political views aside. Bringing it back to rugby accentuates the point.

[Insouciant]

I do not think this is the same as a physical injury. Nobody carries on playing for his club with that. A full break from rugby on mental health grounds would also have been different.

If, and I stress, if, the booing upset him that badly what will he suffer when he returns to the international fold? That, for me, is the crunch. Regardless of whether he is a good/bad player/fly half/captain/tackler, he is likely to make things worse for himself with this decision in the long run.

The worst manager I ever had in work took me for a one-to-one meeting one day when I was near the breaking point of my mental health and asked me if there was a problem. I explained that I was struggling and finding things very difficult right now, to which his response was, "Well, if you're not able to cope with stress, maybe you should consider whether this is the right job for you. Because things are always going to be stressful and it won't get better."

Unsurprisingly, this was not the advice that I needed at the time. I kept fighting on and a few months later something happened in my personal life that finished me off and a different manager told me that I wasn't allowed to take the morning off to deal with it and then make up the hours later in the week, he needed me to go to the doctors and get signed off properly, because I was Not Okay. I ended up taking 4 months off and that second manager probably saved my life.

I am still in that job and now very successful at it*. Although my mental health is still far from perfect and does require managing, I am coping fine with probably more stress than I was dealing with back then - as it turns out, the problem was not that I "wasn't able to cope with stress" or that I needed to resign from that job, it was that I was seriously ill. I have now taken the actions that were needed to recover and I can do the job again.


It's also incredibly reductive to say, "Well, if there was something really wrong with him, then he wouldn't be playing for Saracens." Quite apart from the fact that we absolutely should fucking not be implying that someone with a mental health problem is just being a bit sensitive and can't have a real problem otherwise he'd be doing X, I don't see any inconsistency in reducing work responsibilities to remove the higher stress, higher intensity duties temporarily while they get better. Some people benefit from a complete break, some people benefit from trying to keep going as much as they can but being sensible about reducing their workload.

Puja


*Sadly, the first manager is also still at the company and has been promoted up the ranks. The second one was not valued very highly as he wasn't ruthless and driving enough to produce the figures and has since left.

Says everything about the piss poor standard of management in UK (and I expect worldwide) - it’s not what you know but who you know and s**t floats up to the top as evidenced by recent occupants of no.10 - my rant aside, moving and thought provoking Puja

When you see some of the people who run the country and their passion for being cruel to people who might be homeless/fleeing a warzone, it's not surprising sadly.

@Puja - glad you have managed to rebuild from that situation. It's not an easy situation, but it can be done as I can also attest to.

As for Owen Farrell - I'm not his biggest fan, I've definitely made jokes about him 'shouldering' a lot of burden as Captain.
As for this current situation, the description of it is vague and I won't speculate. I would like for him to be able to go away and take some out to recover if he feels he needs to. Hopefully that works for him and his family - his wellbeing is the most important thing. It's a genuine shame that it has reached a situation for him where he feels has wants/has to that step.

On a rugby level - the new captain should be a stick on selection (and someone who wants to take it - which may rule out one of our only stick on selections). Otherwise @ 10, I'd like to see Ford get a go with a running threat at 12. It depends where Single-minded Borstal wants to go. We may continue to kick the leather off it and avoid all that fancy 'throwy-catchy-running' type stuff.

All the selection issues (retirements, injuries, OF's situation) do make the 6 squad and team selection for the 6 nations a lot more interesting than they might have been. It seems the perfect time to try something new.