RugbyRebels

Stom wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:42 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:20 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:29 pm

I'd also agree with Banquo that he's not really a like for like replacement. They're two different players and I think

Hence ‘closest like for like’ rather than just like for like.

I'm not sure that's true, though. Willis seems much more like a Hill style flanker, while Curry is much more like Moody, imo. Willis doesn't do that charging around, his intensity is a very different type of intensity.

I actually think he could look good in this 8 role that Slanderous Braindrain is putting in place.

I had to check who posted this three times.

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:54 am Following SB's accidental selection of Earl at 8 - and Earl's overall maturity as an international, my choice for our back row would be Willis, Earl and Willis. I suspect we will never see it given a chance for a variety of reasons: JW in France, TW's injuries and status at Saracens together with our trend for always wanting a line-out lump at 6. Regardless of my favourite combo being right or wrong, good or bad, somehow, we always seem to compromise in back row selection. Maybe, that's why we come second against the best back rows so often in crunch matches.

Yeah like the way we came second against the Irish backrow...

I don't think Earl's selection at 8 was accidental. Borthwick likes his 8s to have a big work rate on both sides of the ball and be very physical with it. Weise being the one he selected for Tigers. I think he wanted more physicality than Earl initially but when Dombrant and BillyV both failed miserably to offer the intensity he wanted he settled on Earl who was regularly towards or at the top of England's metres and tackles made in each 6N game. Downside to Earl is that lack of physicality and he isn't a lineout option so we tend towards a bigger 6 who can jump. Nearly all of the world rugby teams stock a backrow who's a good lineout option.

France's entire backrow, Ireland use POM, SA have PSTD etc.

I'm interested to see how Ted Hill finishes the season with Bath. I think he could be a very good option for England at 6. Hopefully Tom Willis stays fit and strings some games together as well, he's not had much luck.

Not sure I'll be joining you in crying over the unavailability of Jack though. We've got opensides and if he wants to be in the conversation he knows what he needs to do.

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:21 pm I just wish we'd made a clone of Tom Curry before he got injured.

Ben has proved to be a lesser clone. Wrong test tube mebbe.

Has anything been proven one way or the other? I mean he wasn’t great in that Scotland game but a handful of appearances in Borthwick’s pre-RWC panic 6 nations team doesn’t feel the same as coming in to the side in 2019 when England actually looked good.

Not that I necessarily think he’ll hit the same heights, but it would be interesting to know what boxes he’s failing to tick for Borthwick.

Maybe I’m just conscious we all wrote Earl off as not being up to it at this level after 10-15 fairly inconspicuous caps. I have a feeling I’ve forgotten a couple of other B Curry caps though, which may prove your point.

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:18 amI'm interested to see how Ted Hill finishes the season with Bath.

Currently injured

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:25 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:21 pm I just wish we'd made a clone of Tom Curry before he got injured.

Ben has proved to be a lesser clone. Wrong test tube mebbe.

Has anything been proven one way or the other? I mean he wasn’t great in that Scotland game but a handful of appearances in Borthwick’s pre-RWC panic 6 nations team doesn’t feel the same as coming in to the side in 2019 when England actually looked good.

Not that I necessarily think he’ll hit the same heights, but it would be interesting to know what boxes he’s failing to tick for Borthwick.

Maybe I’m just conscious we all wrote Earl off as not being up to it at this level after 10-15 fairly inconspicuous caps. I have a feeling I’ve forgotten a couple of other B Curry caps though, which may prove your point.

You're not wrong - he's had barely any chance for England. 5 caps, with only one start - a grand total of 164 minutes on the pitch.

I still maintain the difference between TCurry and BCurry comes mainly down to the experience and elite training time that the former has had, but that is a fairly significant difference at this point. Hard to see BCurry getting a prolonged run, given the competition that now exists for the England 7 shirt which just wasn't there at Tom's emergence.

Puja

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:25 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 12:21 pm I just wish we'd made a clone of Tom Curry before he got injured.

Ben has proved to be a lesser clone. Wrong test tube mebbe.

Has anything been proven one way or the other? I mean he wasn’t great in that Scotland game but a handful of appearances in Borthwick’s pre-RWC panic 6 nations team doesn’t feel the same as coming in to the side in 2019 when England actually looked good.

Not that I necessarily think he’ll hit the same heights, but it would be interesting to know what boxes he’s failing to tick for Borthwick.

Maybe I’m just conscious we all wrote Earl off as not being up to it at this level after 10-15 fairly inconspicuous caps. I have a feeling I’ve forgotten a couple of other B Curry caps though, which may prove your point.

just failing to take the pi55 well out of a topic you've raised a few times, and not provable either way.

Puja wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:38 am

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:25 am

Banquo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 7:02 pm

Ben has proved to be a lesser clone. Wrong test tube mebbe.

Has anything been proven one way or the other? I mean he wasn’t great in that Scotland game but a handful of appearances in Borthwick’s pre-RWC panic 6 nations team doesn’t feel the same as coming in to the side in 2019 when England actually looked good.

Not that I necessarily think he’ll hit the same heights, but it would be interesting to know what boxes he’s failing to tick for Borthwick.

Maybe I’m just conscious we all wrote Earl off as not being up to it at this level after 10-15 fairly inconspicuous caps. I have a feeling I’ve forgotten a couple of other B Curry caps though, which may prove your point.

I still maintain the difference between TCurry and BCurry comes mainly down to the experience and elite training time that the former has had, but that is a fairly significant difference at this point.
Puja

or that identical doesn't extend to rugby ability...only those who work closely with them really knows. But its quite a compliment to Eddie's coaching you are bestowing

Both are still only 25, which surprises me.

Stom wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:42 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:20 pm

Stom wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 6:29 pm

I'd also agree with Banquo that he's not really a like for like replacement. They're two different players and I think

Hence ‘closest like for like’ rather than just like for like.

I'm not sure that's true, though. Willis seems much more like a Hill style flanker, while Curry is much more like Moody, imo. Willis doesn't do that charging around, his intensity is a very different type of intensity.

I actually think he could look good in this 8 role that Slanderous Braindrain is putting in place.

Who is the EQP who is a closer like for like?
Can’t agree that T Cuzza is anything like Moody.

I dunno. He does a good headless chicken impression on occasion.

Far more rounded skillset and more cerebral, imo.

I can't see Willis as Richard Hill, nor either Curry as Moody frankly (he seems very even tempered, not at all moody ). Willis J is much more a jackaler than Hill ever was- its his USP ....and in order to accomodate that, the likes of Richard Hill would be an ideal complement to him at 6, as imo would Tom Curry, though unlikely to happen for a number of reasons; and Curry v Moody is cerebral, skilled v impact and energy.

On EQPs like Tom Curry, I'd have Ben (:)), Earl, Pearson, even Underhill more like him than Jack Willis tbh (who is a pretty unusual player tbf).

I’d quite like to see Ted Hill alongside both Willis brothers purely for aggro, square-headed mayhem.

Danno wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 8:37 am

Stom wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:42 am

Mellsblue wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 8:20 pm
Hence ‘closest like for like’ rather than just like for like.

I'm not sure that's true, though. Willis seems much more like a Hill style flanker, while Curry is much more like Moody, imo. Willis doesn't do that charging around, his intensity is a very different type of intensity.

I actually think he could look good in this 8 role that Slanderous Braindrain is putting in place.

I had to check who posted this three times.

lol

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 11:00 am I’d quite like to see Ted Hill alongside both Willis brothers purely for aggro, square-headed mayhem.

Me too. I was also thinking Ted Hill, Jack Willis, Ben Earl....

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:18 am

Oakboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 7:54 am Following SB's accidental selection of Earl at 8 - and Earl's overall maturity as an international, my choice for our back row would be Willis, Earl and Willis. I suspect we will never see it given a chance for a variety of reasons: JW in France, TW's injuries and status at Saracens together with our trend for always wanting a line-out lump at 6. Regardless of my favourite combo being right or wrong, good or bad, somehow, we always seem to compromise in back row selection. Maybe, that's why we come second against the best back rows so often in crunch matches.

Yeah like the way we came second against the Irish backrow...

I don't think Earl's selection at 8 was accidental. Borthwick likes his 8s to have a big work rate on both sides of the ball and be very physical with it. Weise being the one he selected for Tigers. I think he wanted more physicality than Earl initially but when Dombrant and BillyV both failed miserably to offer the intensity he wanted he settled on Earl who was regularly towards or at the top of England's metres and tackles made in each 6N game. Downside to Earl is that lack of physicality and he isn't a lineout option so we tend towards a bigger 6 who can jump. Nearly all of the world rugby teams stock a backrow who's a good lineout option.

France's entire backrow, Ireland use POM, SA have PSTD etc.

I'm interested to see how Ted Hill finishes the season with Bath. I think he could be a very good option for England at 6. Hopefully Tom Willis stays fit and strings some games together as well, he's not had much luck.

Not sure I'll be joining you in crying over the unavailability of Jack though. We've got opensides and if he wants to be in the conversation he knows what he needs to do.

It will be interesting to see how he and Guy Pepper combine for Bath.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:38 am

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:18 amI'm interested to see how Ted Hill finishes the season with Bath.

Currently injured

Again? FFS, he was galloping in for that try Vs Chiefs two minutes ago.

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:33 am I can't see Willis as Richard Hill, nor either Curry as Moody frankly (he seems very even tempered, not at all moody ). Willis J is much more a jackaler than Hill ever was- its his USP ....and in order to accomodate that, the likes of Richard Hill would be an ideal complement to him at 6, as imo would Tom Curry, though unlikely to happen for a number of reasons; and Curry v Moody is cerebral, skilled v impact and energy.

On EQPs like Tom Curry, I'd have Ben (:)), Earl, Pearson, even Underhill more like him than Jack Willis tbh (who is a pretty unusual player tbf).

Yeah, that I understand. But Curry is a very...labrador like player. He is all over the pitch and visibly all over the pitch. Involved in attack, making the tackle, hitting the ruck, attempting the turnover. Like Moody was, just Curry is, as you say, a lot more of a thinker than Moody ever was.

While Willis doesn't seem to be on the pitch to me. I don't notice him until he pops up with something for 80% of the time. And for the other 20% of the time, he's the game. He's the focal point. Thinking back to a Wasps game a few years back, and I remember that Willis was just around until suddenly he was the one who made a turnover, made a burst, made two hard carries close to the line, and then I think he scored two tries, all in quick succession.

And as I'm writing this, I realise I was wrong, and it's not really Hill. Hard to describe. But I still think Willis and Curry are very different. More different than either are to other England backrow options.

Is he the new Dave Seymour?

Maybe Andy Saull?

Stom wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:14 pm

Banquo wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 10:33 am I can't see Willis as Richard Hill, nor either Curry as Moody frankly (he seems very even tempered, not at all moody ). Willis J is much more a jackaler than Hill ever was- its his USP ....and in order to accomodate that, the likes of Richard Hill would be an ideal complement to him at 6, as imo would Tom Curry, though unlikely to happen for a number of reasons; and Curry v Moody is cerebral, skilled v impact and energy.

On EQPs like Tom Curry, I'd have Ben (:)), Earl, Pearson, even Underhill more like him than Jack Willis tbh (who is a pretty unusual player tbf).

I still think Willis and Curry are very different.

Agree with that, as above. Willis is just a different style to most backrows tbf

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:13 pmAgain? FFS, he was galloping in for that try Vs Chiefs two minutes ago.

Thought to be broken ribs, so a huge variety in severity from "hurts, but possible to play through" to "holy shit, I've punctured a lung"
https://www.bathrugby.com/content/bath- ... e-round-15
"Ted continues to be monitored on the chest injury he sustained in the Investec Champions Cup Round of 16 tie against Exeter Chiefs. A decision on his availability for the upcoming Gallagher Premiership fixture against Exeter will be made later in the week."

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 1:35 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:13 pmAgain? FFS, he was galloping in for that try Vs Chiefs two minutes ago.

Thought to be broken ribs, so a huge variety in severity from "hurts, but possible to play through" to "holy shit, I've punctured a lung"
https://www.bathrugby.com/content/bath- ... e-round-15
"Ted continues to be monitored on the chest injury he sustained in the Investec Champions Cup Round of 16 tie against Exeter Chiefs. A decision on his availability for the upcoming Gallagher Premiership fixture against Exeter will be made later in the week."

doh!

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 1:35 pm

FKAS wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:13 pmAgain? FFS, he was galloping in for that try Vs Chiefs two minutes ago.

Thought to be broken ribs, so a huge variety in severity from "hurts, but possible to play through" to "holy shit, I've punctured a lung"
https://www.bathrugby.com/content/bath- ... e-round-15
"Ted continues to be monitored on the chest injury he sustained in the Investec Champions Cup Round of 16 tie against Exeter Chiefs. A decision on his availability for the upcoming Gallagher Premiership fixture against Exeter will be made later in the week."

Fingers crossed not to serious then.